Second vaccine dose timing

Now I will really put the cat amongst the pigeons!!!! ....

In my opinion the young people who are out and about spreading the virus should be at the top of the list NOT pensioners!!!

There, I've said it!!

Debate in parliament????? Why don’t we just be thankful we’re in a country that has the vaccine........

I read in the paper today that data from Israel suggests one dose of the Pfizer vaccination may only give 33 per cent immunity instead of the higher figure of 89 per cent which has been suggested.
Having had my first vaccination two days ago I was surprised to read this. My second one is due in just under eleven weeks.

The government didn’t make the decision on the second dose timing, the scientists did. All the government can do is rely on the scientific evidence. I saw the end of a news report this morning that suggested the Pfizer vaccine is not as effective as they first thought. Several elderly people have caught Covid after being vaccinated and have died from it. I didn’t catch all of the report, so don’t know how long after vaccination they were infected.

@Canklekitten. I’m with you on this. I suggested the same thing in a mumsnet post a few days ago and had my ass handed to me !! Younger people tend to think more along the lines of ‘it can’t/won’t happen to me and from what I’ve seen out and about on the streets and in supermarkets, they’re much more lax than older people about social distancing. Surely if they were vaccinated first, it would arrest the spread much more quickly while the rest of the groups are given the vaccine. Or are we not being scientific about this ?

Sigh. Alegrias, you keep saying you are a scientist, but don't tell us which field of science. The fact that you are a scientist does not mean you got all the answers. The rest of us are still capable of clear thinking, and making informed decisions.

Three questions and comments.
1) "The governments decision is based on the advice of scientists". Who advised them that a twelve week gap is just as good as a three week gap?
2) The research has been done with a three week gap between jabs, and has been approved as such. Where is the additional research that shows that a twelve week gap is as efficient?
3) Scientists are human, and therefore fallible. I accept their superior grasp of the subject, however, there has been enough concern voiced by medics and scientists (and not just in the Daily Mail) to make us lesser mortals take notice.

Science has become a bit of a substitute religion, and we tend to expect scientists to have THE right answer. Alas, life isn't like that, especially in a rapidly evolving situation like this pandemic. So, please, Alegrias, stop the shouting, and calmly argue your case, but don't pretend that there are no valid concerns.

Pammiel and Canklekitten I had that same conversation with a friend today, and it is an interesting thought. We should at least consider it!
There is one snag though. If it is true that the vaccine does not prevent you getting the virus, but only stops you getting really ill with it, this approach would simply not work.

Canklekitten I can see what you mean, but that would also mean giving first dibs at the vaccine to any of the ??? rule-breakers, like the beach or shopping centre crowders or the guests at yesterday’s wedding who are also potential spreaders.

I agree with everyone thanking Alegrias for her posts. Her easy-to-understand posts are illuminating for those like me who get a bit baffled by the academic explanations.

Alegrias1 you are absolutely right. Like you it make me really really angry that so many people believe what Facebook and the scaremongers tell them. Of course it is safe to wait. Do people really and truly believe that all the medics and scientists would honestly let all those millions of pounds and hours of effort by thousands of NHS workers and others be absolutely wasted if a time gap rendered the entire process futile, useless and pointless? And what if the mum of a petition signer died of Covid while waiting for the first dose so someone else could have two? On another point all the people I know who had both jabs in the two week period were ill after the second one, so maybe a bigger time gap is a good thing.

Do people really and truly believe that all the medics and scientists would honestly let all those millions of pounds and hours of effort by thousands of NHS workers and others be absolutely wasted if a time gap rendered the entire process futile, useless and pointless?

No, but I think cynical politicians might, if it allowed them to state that x number of people had been vaccinated.

Pammie1

The government didn’t make the decision on the second dose timing, the scientists did. All the government can do is rely on the scientific evidence. I saw the end of a news report this morning that suggested the Pfizer vaccine is not as effective as they first thought. Several elderly people have caught Covid after being vaccinated and have died from it. I didn’t catch all of the report, so don’t know how long after vaccination they were infected.

I don't think the "scientists" (which scientists exactly?) made the decision to delay the second dose. The decison was made because there weren't enough doses to keep to the original schedule. It was a political decision.

Its scientists that are questioning the rationale behind the governments decision. The decision is a risk according to many informed sources. Our governments likes a gamble as we all know. It's a risk that might or might not pay off and that needs to be recognised.

Of course the simple solution is for everyone who doesn't approve of the longer wait to refuse to have the first vaccination until everyone else has been vaccinated twice, then join the back of the queue. Then, if you turn out to be correct , you can smugly say " I told you so". Of course , there is also a chance that you will be wrong, and will have spent months risking your health. As for me, I got vaccinated today. I work at a vaccination centre and I see the relief and gratitude on everyone's faces. I am delighted that I got the opportunity to have my first dose.

Well, lucky you! I assume you're over 80.

This really isn't a matter of opinion and proving oneself right or wrong. That's just childish. It's about being transparent, which this government hasn't been right from the start. It's about knowing the facts. Personally, I don't have views either way - all I want to know is that an informed decision, not based on political point scoring, has been made.

The first people to be vaccinated didn't have the choice of delaying their first jab. They were told they would have the second one within two weeks.

growstuff was the sarcy comment aimed at me? You really should say who you are talking to. If it was. No. I am not over 80. I was 66 on Wednesday. But nor am I shielding. I am working my socks off helping literally hundreds of people a day getting to the correct place and moving around a large building. Many of them have mobility problems and need physical help or aren't quite sure where they are or why. All of them are enormously grateful for the opportunity they have been given. Lots of them bring treats and cakes for us. (That is definitely a hint to everyone waiting to get theirs!) I got my vaccination because there was some left at the end of the shift. And the NHS had to use it or lose it. I am hugely glad as my children were not happy about me working there.

#Alegrias It's quite interesting what the BMJ says. See here:

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n18#:~:text=A%20paper%20published%20in%20the,failures%20were%20in%20the%20days

Lizbethann55

growstuff was the sarcy comment aimed at me? You really should say who you are talking to. If it was. No. I am not over 80. I was 66 on Wednesday. But nor am I shielding. I am working my socks off helping literally hundreds of people a day getting to the correct place and moving around a large building. Many of them have mobility problems and need physical help or aren't quite sure where they are or why. All of them are enormously grateful for the opportunity they have been given. Lots of them bring treats and cakes for us. (That is definitely a hint to everyone waiting to get theirs!) I got my vaccination because there was some left at the end of the shift. And the NHS had to use it or lose it. I am hugely glad as my children were not happy about me working there.

So did you count as a frontline healthcare worker?

I know a few people who have volunteered at vaccination sessions too.

I'm just surprised you can make such a silly comment as the one you did about people choosing and accusing people of being triumphalist if they turn out to be right. There will be nothing to celebrate if they are right! :-(

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Grow stuff. No . I am not a frontline anything. I am a ,library assistant who desperately misses my beautiful old branch library and all my much loved regular borrowers. I can't wait to get back, though it isn't looking at all likely this side of summer. So my colleagues and I have been packed off to the local sports centres to help out. At the end of the shift any left over vaccine has to be thrown away. Any staff there who want a vaccine can have it as an alternative to literally wasting it. I am actually one of the last as it depends entirely on what shift we are on.

....you’re entitled to keep on believing what you like.......

Nobody is discussing belief but they are asking for evidence that a twelve week gap between Pfizer vaccines is as good, or better than the recommended three week gap. At the moment there is none.

The AstraZenica vaccine on the other hand has shown better efficacy with a longer gap.

Just because you are a scientist Alegrias does not make you an authority on these vaccines. They’re not even in your area of expertise. Shouting that you know better than everyone else does not make you actually know better than everyone else. Perhaps you should get in touch with the BMA because I’m sure they’d appreciate your expertise.

growstuff
Very good, balanced posts.

For those who think the decision was a political one and the government are ignoring the scientists' recommendations. Maybe you think all these scientists have been leaned on by Boris and Matt?

JCVI statement on vaccines link at the bottom. Extract:
The Committee supports a two-dose vaccine schedule for the Pfizer-BioNTech and AstraZeneca vaccines. Given the data available, and evidence from the use of many other vaccines, JCVI advises a maximum interval between the first and second doses of 12 weeks for both vaccines.
It can be assumed that protection from the first dose will wane in the medium term, and the second dose will still be required to provide more durable protection.
The Committee advises initially prioritising delivery of the first vaccine dose as this is highly likely to have a greater public health impact in the short term and reduce the number of preventable deaths from COVID-19.

Members of JCVI :
Professor Andrew Pollard, Chair (University of Oxford)
Professor Lim Wei Shen, Chair COVID-19 immunisation (Nottingham University Hospitals)
Professor Anthony Harnden, Deputy Chair (University of Oxford)
Dr Kevin Brown (Public Health England)
Dr Rebecca Cordery (Public Health England)
Dr Maggie Wearmouth (East Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust)
Professor Matt Keeling (University of Warwick)
Alison Lawrence (lay member)
Professor Robert Read (Southampton General Hospital)
Professor Anthony Scott (London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine)
Professor Adam Finn (University of Bristol)
Dr Fiona van der Klis (National Institute for Public Health and the Environment, Netherlands)
Professor Maarten Postma (University of Groningen)
Professor Simon Kroll (Imperial College London)
Dr Martin Williams (University Hospitals Bristol)
Professor Jeremy Brown (University College London Hospitals)

Additional members of the COVID-19 sub committee :
Professor Bryan Charleston (The Pirbright Institute)
Professor Lucy Yardley (University of Southampton)
Professor Robert Dingwall (Nottingham Trent University)
Professor Liz Miller (London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine)

www.gov.uk/government/publications/prioritising-the-first-covid-19-vaccine-dose-jcvi-statement/optimising-the-covid-19-vaccination-programme-for-maximum-short-term-impact