How should we deal with the groups who refuse to have the vaccine?

I was so encouraged to hear on the news yesterday that the vaccine take up rate of the over 70s is well over 95%.

Let’s hope the same enthusiasm continues throughout the ages.

Tweedle24

There was an interesting discussion on the radio this morning surrounding whether it would be legal for employers to insist on their employees being vaccinated.

Apparently, it is a grey area of the law. It might be possible, for example, for care home owners/managers to refuse to employ unvaccinated staff.

It will be interesting to see whether that ever comes about and how the first court case goes.

It is an interesting "grey area" although there would have to be a major shift in existing law to see this through.

There are no statutory provisions that could force individuals to become vaccinated. The Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984 specifically states that members of the public should not be compelled to undergo any mandatory medical treatment, including vaccinations.

I would suggest that any Employer who tries to force this through at present would see the full wrath of the courts at a tribunal.

nightowl

Forcing people to have any form of medical treatment against their will is very different from forcing people to wear seat belts etc. There are stringent legal safeguards against this, for example for those who are detained under the Mental Health Act or those deemed to lack mental capacity.

Be very, very careful before advocating such a step, it would be a very slippery slope indeed.

Which is why my original post started with the statement that I believed that we couldn't do it and that education was the way forward.

Nonetheless it bears thought that we have one group of people who refuse to do something when it could fatally affect others, and we have another group of people who refuse to do something when it could fatally affect others.

Ginnytonic5

varian

Those who refuse a covid vaccine are endangering themselves and everyone else they might come in to contact with.

That is analagouus to the drink drivers, not the seatbelt refusers,.

These people could be responsible for the deaths of others.

We should ask them - "if you infected someone who died, how could you live with yourself?"

varian you ask .....how would you live with yourself if somebody you infected died? ...what about the fact that you, after being vaccinated can still pass it on to others ? The vaccine is not going to be the holy grail unfortunately .

I don’t think anyone has said the vaccine is the holy grail. We all know that we have to continue with hand face space ventilate. It’s just that we can add vaccinate to that list and it gives another layer of protection. Eventually there will be enough layers to eradicate the virus completely but we’ve got a long way to go yet and we all have to play our part in whichever way we can.

I'm definitely having the vaccine now that my nephew has caught Covid. The group of 5 of his work colleagues all tested positive at the same time and have symptoms. Really hoping they all recover well. I was in two minds whether to have it or not but now I am definitely when I get called.
It's still spreading and people need to realise it's not a hoax

MayBee70 It has only been stated that they do not yet have enough evidence to prove conclusively that the vaccine does stop it being passed on to others, not that that it is definite that it doesn't There is a difference!

Elegran Or as a scientist put it on the radio today, ‘Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence’.

Absolutely. I’m pretty sure the vaccine will reduce transmission but I’m still going to assume it doesn’t.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maybe If everyone makes that assumption and doesn't take up the vaccine for that reason, then it won't be able to stop transmission - because won't be in them to stop it.

A saying and two poems:-

^If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

One poem by Anon (a prolific writer!) :-
For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

And one by Arthur Clough Ellis :-
Say not the struggle nought availeth,
The labour and the wounds are vain,
The enemy faints not, nor faileth,
And as things have been they remain.

If hopes were dupes, fears may be liars;
It may be, in yon smoke concealed,
Your comrades chase e'en now the fliers,
And, but for you, possess the field.

Here's a related hypothetical question:
My local art group is full of retired people; I'm the youngest at 63. I am pro-vaccine and have had my first jab. Three of the group have refused the vaccination. When we can meet up again (assuming that they've survived and we can meet!) will it be morally right for all of us to be together?

Northernlass

Here's a related hypothetical question:
My local art group is full of retired people; I'm the youngest at 63. I am pro-vaccine and have had my first jab. Three of the group have refused the vaccination. When we can meet up again (assuming that they've survived and we can meet!) will it be morally right for all of us to be together?

Is it a moral question or a question about exposure to risk? Atm my thinking is that I’ll be keeping away from any situations in which I know there are unvaccinated people and I have the choice to avoid. My reasons are that no vaccine is 100 % effective and so far, no evidence exists that being vaccinated stops 100% transmission. I realise that as the % of people vaccinated grows, the risks reduce because of herd immunity but nevertheless ....

Northernlass

Here's a related hypothetical question:
My local art group is full of retired people; I'm the youngest at 63. I am pro-vaccine and have had my first jab. Three of the group have refused the vaccination. When we can meet up again (assuming that they've survived and we can meet!) will it be morally right for all of us to be together?

I think not. I’ve heard of places where you won’t be able to go in if you haven’t had a jab. Or, for those who can’t have it for medical reasons, a letter to show that. It’s a social responsibility.
Also heard of a Care Home group where staff who are refusing to have a jab will lose their jobs under H&S regulations. Good for them I say.

Elegant. What I meant was that when I’ve had the vaccine (Sunday: can’t wait!) I won’t change anything about how I’m living now even when restrictions are lifted.

Franbern raises the requirement for children to have all the relevant vaccinations; when my grandchildren lived in the (socially liberal) Netherlands evidence of up to date vaccinations was necessary for any nursery or school place unless there was medical evidence why a child could not have it. Accepted that this was for everyone’s protection. Sometimes public health needs to over ride personal preference.

suziewoozie: good point about the question being about exposure to risk. I can't see my life getting back to anything near the usual for quite sometime; I feel fearful of the consequences.

WW010: I agree it's a social responsibility to have the vaccine. And it should be a (retrospective, in a lot of cases) condition of service to have the vaccine.

GrannySomerset: This is definitely one of those times when public health needs to override personal preference.

I know someone who claims to have read ALL (!) the research about the vaccines and has made the decision not to have it. Interestingly, she wouldn't engage in a dialogue and I am genuinely interested how an educated person (Arts) can arrive at such a decision. My family are scientists and we've come to the opposite decision, naturally.

JenniferEccles:
This research from Kings College, London may answer some of your questions:

www.kcl.ac.uk/news/belief-in-covid-conspiracies-linked-with-vaccine-hesitancy

Thank you for that Northernlass
It made interesting reading didn’t it?

I wonder what other factors correlate with vaccine hesitancy - sex, age, education level, area of the country?

I think it’s a huge range of issues suziewoosie rather than just a few. My parents are in their nineties, and my mum had her vaccination a few weeks ago, she was very keen. My dad is as stubborn as they come, he hasn’t been to the GP for at least 10 years (and only then because he had shingles and it was behind his eye, which required urgent hospital treatment). He refused to be vaccinated, despite my my mum and all his children trying to persuade him. In the end his GP rang him up personally, and he has been persuaded I hope, will have it done shortly. He hates anything to do with his health, he prefers to just not think about it. He’s an intelligent ex professional man, so there’s no logic to it other than possibly he’s scared?

There was a woman on the tv news last night saying she was reluctant to be vaccinated as ‘there were mixed messages on social media’
This woman incidentally was the manager of a care home ?.

If people like her rely on social media rather than scientists for their information then heaven help us.

Incidentally she was of an ethnic group most likely to be badly affected by the virus.

I agree Casdon. I’d just like to see the other issues explored.

I'm really pleased you found the link interesting, as do I, JenniferEccles. Sounds like you've read it too suziewoozie.

This link is about research done at Oxford University into vaccine hesitancy. It's really accessible.

www.ox.ac.uk/news/science-blog/covid-19-vaccine-hesitancy-uk

The following extract, from the above, is pertinent to your question suziewoozie, although is doesn't explain everything:

"The fear that vaccine hesitancy may be going mainstream is borne out by the fact that, in our survey, mistrust wasn’t confined to particular groups; on the contrary, it was evident across the population. Hesitancy was slightly higher in young people, women, those on lower income, and people of Black ethnicity, but the size of the associations was very small. So we can’t explain COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy by reference to socio-demographic factors."

Many years ago I was involved in the psychology field and attended a seminar about beliefs. The leading psychologist said we act as if our beliefs are true, whether or not they are. They're principles we develop that guide us through life. But, they're generalisations which, seemingly, are based on our past experiences and form our future reactions. They're not facts but we have a tendency to cherry-pick notions that support our beliefs and dispel contradictions. Beliefs may not be logical and they may not be proved.

We can work to change our beliefs as they're not set in stone. However, we have to have the desire and/or resources to do so.
I could continue but don't want to turn this into an essay!

Stay safe & well everyone.

Me too suziewoosie - I think there will be lots of different factors, but if it’s possible to find out what they are and address at least some of them it would be a step forward.

I wonder how much of the solution will be in the one to one discussions with professionals, including counsellors and religious leaders Northernlass, that’s maybe the only thing that will override the power of social media?