Am I out of step with other pensioners?

Doodledog

*I do think that the older generations have been totally selfish*
And what would you have had the older generations do? All any of us - young, old or in-between - is follow the rules set out by the government. Stay home, wear a mask if you have to go out, socially distance, get tested, get vaccinated when your turn comes round.

If that is totally selfish, what does unselfish behaviour look like?

Unselfish behaviour is six foot under in a wooden box, so it would appear.

The lockdowns and particularly the closure of schools have had the worst impact on those family already at a disadvantage - through poverty, poor housing, ill health (both physical and mental).

Let us hope that some notice of this will be taken by the government, who has systematically stripped away those services that were designed to support those who are disadvantaged and to support families in a preventive way.

But many families have stood up to the pandemic's limitations on their lives and sought positives: in the new ways that children have had to learn, in being more involved in their children's learning, in coping with all this against all the odds as an example to their children of how to face life's vicissitudes.

It has been particularly hard for me as I lost my OH at the beginning of the pandemic and had to adapt to living alone in a far harsher way than would have been the case if I could have spent lots of time with my family, and continued to care for GC. It has been (and is) bloody tough. But I absolutely accept the need to observe the limitations that the virus places on me, so that I can protect others and the NHS.

But the idea that children are being "sacrificed" for the sake older people is not one I can buy into. Even supposing that the benefits of the lockdowns solely benefitted older people (which is clearly not the case) I do not base someone's worth on their age. Every human being has intrinsic worth and should be respected and cared for.

We are all working together to protect those most vulnerable, which include young and old, black and ethnic minority people of all ages, people with disabilities, frontline workers etc. There is no hierarchy of worth; nor a competition to see who is sacrificing the most. We simply all do our bit.

I have lots if the same thoughts as the poster. I have had my life, and am so very, very concerned as to the very long-term effects this last year is going to have on my adult children, and - even more - my g.children. They will be paying for the economic fall-out for , probably, several decades - long after I will have gone.

Most pensioners have actually come out of this year better off financially - as they have stayed at home, still go their pension money paid into their banks, and cut their expenditure ( no holidays, meals out, visits to theatres, cinema or, even to the hairdressers). So many younger people will be suffering due to unemployment, lack of employment prospects, furlough payments being less than normal wages, etc. etc.

Recently saw a table from ONS - so think it can be accepted as reasonably accurate that actually shows that 2020 was about 20th for death rate per hundred thousand population in the last thirty years. Just gives something to think about. Did try to copy and paste that table on here, but my computer skills were not up to it.r

Just to add to my post - comment about Lockdown being to /Protect NHS'!! Well, if the NHS had not been continuously robbed over past decade of money with so many of their formally 'in-house; services being sent out to privatised companies who then needed to ensure their profits; if even a percentage of the thirty two billion pounds spent on an non-working Track & Trace system had been given to provide more staff and facilities in the NHS, then there would not have been the need to protect it.

It does need protecting - from the likes of those in power at present. Still waiting for some of that large sum of money listed on the side of the bus to come the way of the NHS!!!

I agree that the reason the NHS need protecting was because it had been underfunded for decades. In the same way that disadvantaged families have suffered the most because of the underfunding of mental health services, of community support programmes like Sure Start (wiped out in a stroke of the pen) and housing.

Also there have been devastating cuts from central government to social care too. If you have a social care system that is 'just about managing' or not quite managing at all and you throw in a pandemic that for want of a better word, prioritises its attack on the vulnerable, can we even protect them?

Franbern here’s an analysis which identifies incorrect social media reporting of death statistics for the UK. The number of deaths was higher in 2020.
www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-mortality-idUSKBN28V2T2

The cuts to sure start were so short sighted too. I know I used to go to a centre with my youngest and it was the first port of call as a safe space for so many women with children and before the cuts it had started really tapping into youth services, it is such a shame it was dismantled.

GrannyRose and Franbern
Good posts from both of you.
I will not accept the absolute rubbish spouted by some that children have in some way benefitted from lockdown. That is the most ludicrous suggestion. I suppose it assuages guilt, or the acknowledgment that lockdown has damaged people, particularly some of the most vulnerable in society.

Pensioners who have come safely through lockdown are very privileged. And to not acknowledge the losses and sacrifices others have made on their behalf is selfish.

We had to have lockdown. It was the only way in my opinion. But for goodness sake have the grace to admit the damage done to others on your behalf.

It’s been discussed on Jeremy Vine now. There’s one ridiculous person suggesting that schools should remain closed. Thankfully Andrew (can’t remember his surname) is saying ‘absolutely not.’ He says children are the most important. He’s right.

Luckygirl has it right, and I expect those of us to who are financially comfortable will feel the cost of this epidemic - and rightly. I have spent the past year as sole carer for DH who is deteriorating with Parkinson’s; this is becoming a real struggle and at present the chance of finding help is minimal. I don’t feel I have been sacrificed, just accept that my very limited life is the one thing I can do as part of dealing with the pandemic. Compared with the challenge of working from home while home schooling two or three children I have had it easy!

Turning this horrific time into an inter generational fight serves no-one and simply adds to the contempt with which some younger people appear to view the elderly. Getting old happens to us all, though.

I would hate anyone to suffer from long covid. I also value life. I remember thinking of how I would think when I became older but actually I changed my views and you don't necessarily think the way you do at 30 that anyone over 60 has live their life and should accept death from covid. I know most 30,year olds don't think this way either. We are protecting each other and the NHS.

I will not accept the absolute rubbish spouted by some that children have in some way benefitted from lockdown.

I disagree - and it is not appropriate to call a different opinion "rubbish".

My GC have:
- done lots of outside learning
- done learning that has breadth and imagination, rather than being shackled by the micromanaged curriculum in school
- designed and built a machine to lift water from a local stream
- photographed wildlife in the garden
- climbed hills (PE) and photographed the view from the top
- developed a closer relationship with me and other grandparents as we got involved on zoom in helping them with their school work
- enjoyed music and art projects
- learned to make the best of a bad situation - a valuable lesson for the future. This will not be the only challenge they will face in life
- found new ways of relating to their friends
- seen what hard work their parents do to keep them well and happy - and started to help out more at home

My GC have definitely benefitted - but clearly that is not so for all children.

The argument that they will be academically behind does not really hold water as this whole cohort is in the same boat and employers will recognise that. And it begs the question "behind what?" - some arbitrary definition of what should be learned when?

The children who will have suffered will be those who were already at the bottom of the heap and, as I said previously, the government needs to reinstate those services that have been wiped out that helped these families - and to think ahead as to how these inequalities in life chances should be addressed. They need to invest more in mental health services, and make them more accessible and user-friendly.

It is simply not true to say that most children have suffered. Children who hate school have probably learned more and progressed further as they have not had to deal with disrupted classrooms and bullying.

The lockdown has been a huge burden to many - to older people, to families, and to many children. But facing up to these challenges is in itself a valuable lesson for children to learn.

My DGC have sent me many messages of support full of kind sentiments that have shown that they have learned about empathy and consideration. This will stand them in better stead than fronted adverbials.

Most pensioners have actually come out of this year better off financially - as they have stayed at home, still go their pension money paid into their banks, and cut their expenditure ( no holidays, meals out, visits to theatres, cinema or, even to the hairdressers).

But that is true of countless people who have been working from home or furloughed. According to the news last night four fifths of the population have saved money in lockdown. The other fifth, made up of the disadvantaged, have had to borrow or eat into savings in order to stay afloat. IMO this is where we need to concentrate our efforts. Everyone has suffered, but some have suffered more than others - children from poorer families will have suffered far more than others, and the fact that there is even a discussion about cutting the £20 extra Universal Credit whilst people on furlough were paid up to £2600 a month is testament to the fact that people don't care about the gross inequalities in this country.

Not everything about this is generational. Young people have died of Covid. Not all older people are pensioners - many still work. Groups other then 'the old' are vulnerable too - as has been said, BAME people, Diabetics, the overweight, asthmatics and others with underlying conditions are at serious risk too, whatever their age.

If everyone went about their business and let the vulnerable shift for themselves, a lot of older people would be out and about, and a lot of vulnerable younger ones would be at risk from them. IMO that would be selfish - it is far better that we all, whatever our age, do as much as we can to help one another to get through this.

Casdibni am unable to get your link. My figures came from ONS - pretty substantial and accurate source. Yes, figures have gone up this years on previous five years = but when comparing the figures as deaths per thousand of population over last thirty years, this last year has not been at all bad.

www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathsintheukfrom1990to2020
This is I think the figure you were referring to franbern. Given that flu did not circulate because of the protection people were taking for COVID, and the lack of road traffic and work related accidents because people weren’t working for significant periods, I can see that superficially the figures don’t look horrific, but of course it wasn’t a typical year. If you factor in the impact of those elements it would be by far the worst year in the last 20 - and only accounts for the first wave of COVID. The first three months of this year will be worse, and the impact of all the under diagnosis and treatment will also start to impact more significantly.

My sister has a friend who comes from Bosnia and was a child during the war there. She and her family escaped to England and she arrived here having missed 4 years of school and speaking no English at all.

She now has a degree and a PhD and a good job that she enjoys; and said to my sister that she could not understand why there was an outcry about children being "sacrificed" and missing out badly. As she said - they have just missed a bit of school; they have not been tied up in a warzone where their young lives were at risk every day.

Franbern Do you have a link to the ONS table? The figures I've seen show that in April 2020 there were 12 ,000 excess deaths in the UK. The figure decreased then rose again and has correlated with the number dying from Covid.

Thank you Casdon. I hadn't seen your post.

maddyone

GrannyRose and Franbern
Good posts from both of you.
I will not accept the absolute rubbish spouted by some that children have in some way benefitted from lockdown. That is the most ludicrous suggestion. I suppose it assuages guilt, or the acknowledgment that lockdown has damaged people, particularly some of the most vulnerable in society.

Pensioners who have come safely through lockdown are very privileged. And to not acknowledge the losses and sacrifices others have made on their behalf is selfish.

We had to have lockdown. It was the only way in my opinion. But for goodness sake have the grace to admit the damage done to others on your behalf.

maddyone I'm very nearly a state pensioner and I'm still hoping to come through lockdown in one piece. However, I don't regard myself as privileged or selfish. I've found it as tough as anybody and have lost a lot.

GrannySomerset Getting old doesn't happen to us all - only the ones who are lucky enough not to die.

Great posts Luckygirl and Doodledog.

Luckygirl

My sister has a friend who comes from Bosnia and was a child during the war there. She and her family escaped to England and she arrived here having missed 4 years of school and speaking no English at all.

She now has a degree and a PhD and a good job that she enjoys; and said to my sister that she could not understand why there was an outcry about children being "sacrificed" and missing out badly. As she said - they have just missed a bit of school; they have not been tied up in a warzone where their young lives were at risk every day.

My Mum was evacuated at the age of nine to some crummy little village school for six months during WW2. She didn't see her parents or brother during that time (and no Zoom) and was constantly sexually harrassed by the father of the family, but still came back from the experience and went on to do well at school.

However have we stayed alive through the last several decades of seasonal winter flu viruses. You've been offered a 'vaccine' that doesn't give more than 90% immunity (if you believe what Hancock says) but you can still pass it on or catch it again yourself. So much so that you still have to socially distance and wear face coverings. Whereas the virus is almost 100% survivable. Yes, many have died from it, just as many have died in other years. Any deaths are terribly tragic for their families but what kind of life are you living now, being so restricted, and which is never going to be lifted entirely. Are you happy to accept the New Normal? Have you totally relied on a annual flu bug in the past, or do you take responsibility for boosting your own immunity? Do you drink alcohol, do you smoke? You don't mind those risks do you?

One hundred and twenty five thousand plus deaths attest to the fact that the Covid virus is not almost 100% survivable. Thousands and thousands more were admitted to hospital very ill. I was one of those. I’m grateful to be alive and I understand the sacrifices others have made for me to still be here.
The immunity conferred by the vaccine at approximately 90% is excellent and offers hope to us all, including children and young people who have been denied so much during this pandemic.
GrannySomerset I’m sorry to hear of the difficult time you’ve had during lockdown. You are so right to say working from home whilst trying to school two or three children must have been extremely difficult. I’m certainly glad I didn’t have to try to do that. It can’t have been any picnic looking after a spouse with Parkinsons all through lockdown either.