Another vaccine hiccup

Thinking about it I remember last year the medics saying that they’d thought it was a virus that affected the lungs but it was, in fact, affecting the blood. It seems to have similarities with shingles and herpes as well. So much still to learn about it.

It’s the first segment in the programme

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000v2x4

Greeneyedgirl

I heard a snatch of Inside Science On R4 yesterday, must go back and listen to the whole programme. The doctor who had a lifetime experience with clotting disorders said that they had discovered that this specific type of clot after vaccination, not necessarily in the brain, had a specific marker in the blood, I think concerned with the immune system. Worth a listen for the full facts I would think. (R4 at 4.30 on Thursday 15th)

Can’t recommend this too highly. Very clearly explained and particularly reassuring on treatments development. I’ll post a link

Ok thanks Suzie. I’d missed that

Thanks Green will have a listen.

Juliet27

As many of these blood clot cases are in women between the ages of 18 and 48, I wonder if they were on a contraceptive pill which in itself is a slight risk for clots.

I believe that was ruled out

I heard a snatch of Inside Science On R4 yesterday, must go back and listen to the whole programme. The doctor who had a lifetime experience with clotting disorders said that they had discovered that this specific type of clot after vaccination, not necessarily in the brain, had a specific marker in the blood, I think concerned with the immune system. Worth a listen for the full facts I would think. (R4 at 4.30 on Thursday 15th)

As many of these blood clot cases are in women between the ages of 18 and 48, I wonder if they were on a contraceptive pill which in itself is a slight risk for clots.

Maybee70 Some doubts have been expressed about the Sputnik vaccine for the reasons given below

However, it's hard to precisely determine the efficacy of Sputnik V. It was approved for use in Russia last August before the state safety review had been completed. Eight months after the government's fast-track approval, there is still no reliable data on the vaccine. Russia has not yet made crucial primary data available to an independent drug testing authority. www.dw.com/en/is-sputnik-v-vaccine-safe/a-57219314

Ah I see - the problem is that that is unknowable isn’t it? I suppose one day there might be some sort of test - genetic ?to diagnose the predisposition if there is one but I haven’t seen any discussion of that as yet. But I doubt I’m accessing anything quite so esoteric within my reading. I suppose I just feel that the state of play at the moment is that they can’t rule out a link, the risk balance is against under 30s having the AZ and we have an alternative. The fall out sadly is increasing the distrust in AZ and worries after having the jab. maddy gave some figures from her Sil’s surgery which were awful in terms of increased workload but the genie’s out the bottle now.

That’s what I read too Suziewoosie, as that that type of clot occurs naturally, the mystery was whether the people who died after the vaccine had a pre-disposition which meant they would have suffered a clot anyway, but at a later stage- or not. I haven’t seen that possibility discussed, would be grateful to see an article if you have seen any more about this?

Here it is - worth reading.

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/13/how-uk-doctor-marie-scully-blood-clotting-link-astrazeneca-covid-jab-university-college-london-hospital?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Casdon

That’s an interesting thought M0nica, young people do unfortunately randomly suffer from cerebral haemorrhages, in fact a member of my extended family died at the age of 30 with no pre-warning. I wonder if the people who have had the clots following the vaccine would have succumbed to a clot at some point anyway?

But I thought the blood clot involved in the vaccine cases was a particularly rare kind associated with a low platelet count - quite different from other kinds.I read an account the other day by the doctor and her team who discovered this. I’ll see if I can find it

Dr John still thinks that the needle should be aspirated because the vaccine will work in a different way if it goes into a vein and not muscle. His latest blog explains this. The Sputnik vaccine works in the same way so we need to get to the bottom of why this is happening. Also it seems that heparin, which is used to treat blood clots mustn’t be used in these cases.

They may not be able to yet EllanVannin, as they are such rare events it may need a retrospective study to see if the number of incidences and deaths over the next few years from this type of clot is lower as a result of a higher than expected number happening earlier than they otherwise would as a result of the vaccine?

Casdon that was my first query when these things happened. Would the deaths of these people have occurred as swiftly as they did post-vaccination. We've never been given any clarity.

That’s an interesting thought M0nica, young people do unfortunately randomly suffer from cerebral haemorrhages, in fact a member of my extended family died at the age of 30 with no pre-warning. I wonder if the people who have had the clots following the vaccine would have succumbed to a clot at some point anyway?

EllanVannin Looking at it dispassionately, the type of blood clots involved are very rare. If this man died after having the vaccine, isn't it likely that exactly the same thing would have happened if he had caught the disease and with him otherwise in good health no-one would have known enough to warn him that he would be in great danger if he caught it and should, ideally be shielding.

The position adopted maddy as you say can only be judged not by giving overall risks but by the balance of risks and benefits in each age group. Given this, offering an alternative to the under 30s is extremely sensible. I don’t know why anyone wants to criticise this decision

We know that the risk of a blood clot is higher for those who get Covid, but the risk of Covid for the older age groups is much higher anyway, whilst the risks of Covid for the vast majority of young healthy people under 30 or even under 40 are very small. It may seem to them that the risk of a blood clot from a vaccine is greater than the risk of dying of Covid. It seems to me that the risk of a blood clot from the vaccine is still so minute that younger people should still have it, but they may very well think differently.

The risk of a blood clotting is much higher if you actually have COVID than if you have the vaccine. It’s Hobson’s choice.
news.sky.com/story/risk-of-blood-clot-after-covid-is-eight-times-higher-than-after-astrazeneca-jab-study-12276088

-from the vaccination that is. One chap was as fit as a flea with no underlying health problems. Can anyone account for that ? No, they can't. It's too late what to think once that needle is in the muscle.

This is probably what people were telling those who died

You are even more likely to have the same type of blood clot if you get COVID.

So (imaginary figures). if the chance of blood clots with the vaccination is 1: 100,000 and the chance of blood clot with COVID is 1 : 20,000. Which is the safer option?

That's right, the vaccination is safer than getting COVID when it comes to clots (of all kinds)

BlueSky

I would have thought these adenovirus type of vaccines would have been the most trouble free as they use a process already tried and tested, while the ones with mRNA are new technology. Instead they seem to be the ones with more teething problems.

I thought that too.