Reluctance of the young to be vaccinated?

Casdon

NotSpaghetti I split the difference between the figures for age 45 and age 55 to come up with 1 in 500. So to be more exact, if the death risk is 1 in 880 at age 45, and 1 in 240 at age 55, it’s actually 1 in 460 at age 50, if the rate increases proportionately for each year of age. It’s not definitive of course, and neither is the death risk from vaccination, but based on available data it’s the best approximation I could find. The odds are definitely pro vaccination whatever way you look at it.

I came up with a similar figure ( slightly less).

NotSpaghetti The increase in risk is exponential. If you plot it on a graph, there's a curve rather than a straight line.

As far as I know, it's too early to give a definitive figure for dying from the vaccine. All anybody knows at the moment is that the risk is miniscule - considerably less than the demonstrable risk of dying if infected with Covid.

As more data is collected about vaccinated people, it's possible that the risk increases, which is why governments are erring on the side of caution about who is vaccinated. It's extremely unlikely that the risk of dying as a direct result of any vaccine will exceed the risk of dying from Covid - and that's before any considerations about the long term effects of Covid infection.

Sorry, I missed this.

I meant no offence - I was responding to the various posts saying that because the Vegan Society has said that it is ok to have the vaccine then all vegans will take their word as gospel. It’s not like the Pope giving dispensation to Catholics.

You are right though - I wasn’t aware that there were different versions of Catholicism.

Veganism is not like Catholicism, with a set of beliefs that is followed by all adherents.

Doodledog You would surprised just how various and different the beliefs of many catholics are - and all of us would consider ourselves pracising catholics.

That doesn't mean that other vegans will feel the same, though.

Veganism is not like Catholicism, with a set of beliefs that is followed by all adherents. It is just a set of dietary and consumer choices, which is practised by people with all manner of different views outside of those choices.

Some of my family are very strict vegans. They were vegitarian before the birth of their first child who went into anaphylactic shock the first and only time she was given cows milk. She is also extremely allergic to eggs and some other items and carries an epipen at all times.

However they have absolutely no hesitation in accepting the vaccine.

I am not a vegan, and no longer even a vegetarian, but I don’t understand the philosophising and suggestions that vegans should be questioned about their beliefs. I also don’t understand why the Vegan Society is brought into the discussion, or why it’s spokesperson feels morally qualified to advise be gan’s on what to do. The actions of posters’ vegan children/grandchildren aren’t relevant to what other vegans should do either.

Veganism is not a religion. People’s choices about how far to take their beliefs vary - there are no rules.

Its only natural to be cautious of anything new, but you have to weigh up the risks against the benefits. We can't keep the country locked down forever and the vaccine is the best way we currently have out of the situation we're in.

I notice that effalump hasn't come back and answered any of the questions I asked her following her ill informed post about the risks of the vaccine.

Classic Antivaxxer non-response because they dont know and are scared that if they did know and understand they would have to change their mind.

Nightowl. I understand that completely. I have eaten a plant-based diet for 50 years and try to reduce my environmental footprint as much as I can. I would never describe myself as vegan simply because animal products are embedded in almost everything we use. My concern is that (some) vegans may be refusing the vaccine on grounds which are unsound (and also against the advice of the Vegan Society).

….there are flu jabs, but how do you know they are effective? Oh I guess it’s because your GP said so (so it’s nothing to do with the £12-£25 per shot bonuses they get.)

This comment is almost unbelievable in its spitefulness and lack of respect. Your GP wants you to have the flu vaccination because it offers a level of protection against dying from flu. No wonder many doctors are packing up and leaving the UK with this level of nastiness.

My daughter in law is vegan. She just had her second vaccine last week.

There are many vegan alternatives to leather, and most vegans are very conscious of the environmental impact of plastics and seek more environmentally friendly products. Leather production has a huge environmental impact.

Vegans are simply trying to live their lives in a way that causes least harm to other species and to the planet, and I admire them for that. The Vegan Society recognises that it is impossible to completely avoid all animal products as they are embedded in so many everyday products. Vegans do not see that as a reason to stop caring or trying to find better ways of living.

But plastic is nearly always the vegan alternative to animal products such as leather, but once its been produced, leather is more environmentally friendly as its biodegradable. I won't go into the environment issues around farming etc.

I heard a young girl, in her early 20s I think, say a few months back, that she didn't think it was fair that the young should be locked down or vaccinated as covid 'only kills the old.' It was her view that the young should take their chances with the virus. She just couldn't understand that by getting it, it could not only severely alter (long covid) or end, not only her life, but everyone she had come into contact with, especially if they hadn't had the jab.

Vegans who are concerned about vaccines should be encouraged to think about the wider picture. Not Spaghetti mentioned horeshoe crabs and there is certainly ongoing concern about the impact of medical research on species sustainability but this predates SARS CoV2.

It is true that the blood of the horseshoe crab has been used in the development of the Covid vaccine but also true that the peculiar qualities of its blood has played:

an unparalleled, integral part in ensuring environmental safety and that of nearly every drug and medical device in use today (van Holde and Miller, 1995; Loveland et al., 1996) including (e.g., clotting factors, insulin, and [other vaccines]; recombinant drugs; and implantable medical devices (e.g., heart valves and orthopedic devices) (Novitsky, 2009). (1)

Recombinant technology or genetic engineering is a modern method used for the synthesis of therapeutic agents e.g. hormones, anti-rheumatic drugs, interferon and many others.

I understand the vegan ethos but I would also argue that it is a selective belief system:

Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals. Vegan Society

It is hard, arguably, impossible to live in the 21C without using products which contain some part of an animal. Animal tallows are used as cooling agents in our electrical devices and other products such as car tyres. Animal products are also used in everyday plastics as a slip agent. The alternative is plant based derivatives, usually palm oil, and we are all aware of the environmental damage including loss of vital animal habit inherent in the production of that. Three years ago, the plight of the orangutan and “dirty” palm oil production was a hot topic.

Three philosophical questions to pose to a vegan refusing the Covid vaccine:

1. Would he or she also refuse treatment for any other condition where the blood of the horseshoe crab has been vital in developing treatment?

2. Humans are also animals. The vaccine programme is as much about protecting others as it is about protecting ourselves. Is it cruel to refuse a vaccine which could prevent one person from infecting another with a potentially lethal virus?

3. How does he or she feel about using everyday products e.g. a mobile phone, a laptop or tablet, motor vehicles and everyday plastics which contain animal products and what lengths do they go to to select alternatives or eschew products altogether where there is no alternative.

(1) www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmars.2018.00185/full

When DGD, aged 14, heard that vaccinations will probably be offered to children as young as 12, she let out a cheer and said she would be glad to get it, because then they could get back to going to school as normal without constant testing and being sent home whenever anyone in their school bubble tested positive.

My peak of fertility daughter had her 1st vaccine last week. Whoo hoo!!!!

I had my second jab yesterday. It was bought forward as I live in a covid hot spot.

I don't go on holiday and my fertility has long since passed it sell by date, in fact I rarely leave the house. But despite this, I still feel its my civic duty to help bring this pandemic under control by being vaccinated.

effalump
How does the development of the Ebola vaccine fit into your timescale?

Why at a time of fast moving scientific and technological advance do you think it should still take 10-15 years to develop a vaccine? Is it the technology or the virus causing the problem.

How would you compare the dangers you perceive from the vaccine against the very few problems experienced by the many hundred of millions of vaccinations that have taken place over the last six months.

What alternative policy/medication course would you suggest to control COVID and how would the death rate compare with the deaths caused by the vaccine?

What other vaccines have caused problems years after they were first developed?

I look forward to your response.

Alegrias1

Och, away with you woman. You're havering.

?

effalump you are my hero!

Och, away with you woman. You're havering.

There are reasons why vaccines normally take between 5 and 15 years to become available. Apart from testing all the different age groups, they also need testing against over 20,000 prescription medications, singularly and in various combinations to check for adverse reactions. Also ask why there has never been a cure for the common cold and seasonal flu. Most likely because they are mutating all the time. Yes, there are flu jabs, but how do you know if they are effective? Oh, I guess because your GP said so (so it's nothing to do with £12-£25 per shot bonuses they get). If covid vaccine is so effective, why did the pharmaceutical companies get indemnity against possible law suits. Really? If your main reason for risking your fertility is so that you can go on holiday, you should definitely not consider becoming a parent. Once it's in there, there's no looking back but it IS your body your choice.

Savvy, I am sorry to hear about your friend too

Savvy I’m so sorry to hear about your friend.

Whiff it’s so very sad that Covid has ended many long marriages. My Godmother, who is in her 90s, lost her husband right at the beginning. He was in his 90s, had other conditions, wasn’t really a well man, but he got Covid on top of everything else and died. They’d been married many years, had a long and good marriage, but still sad it ended that way.

Met an old man the other day. He was going for his second vaccine. He was saying both he and his wife had Covid . He was a lot worse but it was she who died. He said he will never understand why she died. Felt so sorry for him he was so lost. So stayed talking to him for a while. Hopefully some of the things I said helped.

If anyone who is anti vac spoke to this poor man I am sure it would change their mind. Well I am an optimist .