“By the end of winter, pretty much everyone in Germany will probably be vaccinated, recovered or dead,”

growstuff

Tamayra

But do we know the truth about how many people are in hospital dying from the virus Or how many are dying from the effects of having the vaccine????
I don’t trust our Governments or MSM one iota

How do you think the government is faking statistics about people in hospital and dying?

Or do you believe that doctors and nurses are all in on the conspiracy, and faking their reports and certificates? Are they all sitting around drinking tea all day and then going home and pretending to be exhausted after spending their time intubating dying patients? Chance would be a great thing - ask anyone whose partner is nursing in a CoVid ward.

(also) I think, pen50, that we're certainly on a different trajectory to many European countries - but to where I really don't know. What about further Delta mutations? I'm not reassured by our present position, so maybe we shouldn't draw conclusions just yet:

www.independent.co.uk/news/science/covid-delta-variant-mutations-vaccine-b1959540.html

growstuff, I'm astounded that some antivaxxers still believe in a worldwide conspiracy. Just how likely is it that all the governments would agree to mislead and harm their populations?

pen50

There is some stuff in the news today about us being better protected in the UK, despite similar rates of vaccination to the rest of Europe, because we a) more or less let covid rip during the summer, thus ensuring that younger age groups built up natural immunity rather gradually, but, much more importantly, we used Astra Zenica - which seems to confer longer term TCell protection. Unfortunately the continent fell foul of Macron's anti-AZ rhetoric and other fake news, and hence are experiencing much higher rates of serious covid infection.

My personal cocktail of two AZs, one booster Pf, seems to have been the best of all worlds.

Some sectors of the media are doing a good job at promoting government propaganda, if you believe all that.

Blondie49, How awful for your son. If and when he's able to, he should make his voice heard and publicise his experience. There's still the enduring belief that 'only' older people get ill.

I do feel that we need far more media coverage/exposure of Long Covid and just how debilitating it is. It could well persuade the younger vaccine-hesitant to go for it.

Tamayra

But do we know the truth about how many people are in hospital dying from the virus Or how many are dying from the effects of having the vaccine????
I don’t trust our Governments or MSM one iota

How do you think the government is faking statistics about people in hospital and dying?

I have a relative who is very reluctant to get the booster, but probably will.
(She has had 2 vaccinations already.)

This is because she has poor health, in general, and diabetes.
She has often had an unusual reaction to medication, which is usually dismissed by doctors at least initially, and is also concerned about the long term effect on the diabetes.

Someone who is reluctant for reasons like that is not just being difficult, yet would be included in 'those without medical reasons to refuse' by any authority running a compulsory vaccination scheme.

But do we know the truth about how many people are in hospital dying from the virus Or how many are dying from the effects of having the vaccine????
I don’t trust our Governments or MSM one iota

Shirlb

Only one person knows when/how your going to die can’t change or delay it !!!

And what person is that?

A lot of people think that wearing a mask is to protect them so if they're not worried they don't have to do it.
They give no thought to protecting others.
Mask wearing is still compulsory in indoor spaces in Scotland. In my area of the country, I definitely get the impression that people are keen to protect everyone.

I am strongly against compulsory vaccination against covid19, but do think that perhaps if everyday life was made more difficult for the unvaccinated to enjoy, it may change a few minds. Or maybe those who are not vaccinated yet are the hard core who won't? I never want to find myself living in a country where there is a knock at the door and I get forcibly injected with something which I have exercised my democratic right to refuse. This may seem extreme, and hopefully is, but anyone advocating compulsory vaccination has to consider just how this will be achieved.

Pammie1

Posted too soon. I DO think they should make face coverings compulsory again. Judging by the amount of people I see without them - especially now winter’s coming on - I think we’re getting too complacent

I couldn’t agree more. I don’t understand why people don’t wear them, it’s become a habit and part of life for me now.

I am going to stick my head up over the parapet and say that I am unequivocally in favour of mandatory vaccination.

From being very aware and very cautious about Covid, people seem now to feel that the threat has gone away. Hardly anyone wears a mask, there's no social distancing and people aren't wary of cramming together in crowded places. It's impossible to know whether most people are still scrupulous about handwashing but my guess would be "No."

But the danger hasn't gone away. Vaccination has been a game-changer as far as the death rate is concerned but the numbers show that the infection rate is still high, many need hospitalisation and people are still dying. There is also the knock-on effect of treatment needed by people with other serious illnesses being delayed because NHS resources are needed to treat large numbers of Covid sufferers.

The unvaccinated are more likely to catch and spread the virus, more likely to need hospital care and to die. Vaccinating everyone, except those unable to be done for genuine medical reasons, makes sense to me. I realise that some people would see it as an infringement of their freedom and I don't disagree. Sometimes we have to give up a degree of our freedom in the interests of others. That's what laws are for. I might want to be free to drive at 70 m.p.h. through a residential area but I can't, as I might infringe another person's freedom to survive if my car hits them.

You could say that compulsory medical treatment is more radical than just obeying the speed limit. That's true, of course, but in times of crisis we expect people to do radical things for the common good. In war, we ask people to risk injury, mental trauma and death for the sake of society as a whole and, if they don't volunteer, sometimes we compel them. If we make demands on people's individual freedoms during war, with the argument that they are serving the greater good, can't we do it during peacetime? I would say that a highly contagious virus is a more obvious threat to society than the grounds of many wars.

You may think that it's an exaggerated example but imagine if there had been a flu vaccine in 1918. Would it have made sense to legally require men to risk being maimed or slaughtered in the trenches, but not legally require anyone to be vaccinated to prevent the 50 million deaths from the Spanish flu?

So what happened to the specialised Nightingle hospitals that were built for Covid patients. Surely getting those up and running would free up general hospitals. Maybe army medics running them

Here in greece 40% won’t get the vaccination. 9 out of 10 people being intubated are unvaccinated. The Greek government are now making it almost impossible for the unvaccinated to eat out, travel or shop. We are scanned everywhere we go before being allowed in and if we don’t show as vaccinated, we are not allowed in.

Perhaps our government could show the same strong leadership?

I agree with you too

4allweknow

Alegrias is there a vaccination against smoking? None I have heard of but I may be wrong. Does a smoker cough and spread smoking habit to others? I am though aware of a vaccination to help prevent Covid .

My reference to smoking was in response to a person who said that we should limit the treatment of people who had not had the vaccine.

We don't refuse treatment to people who smoke, even though we all know how bad it is for people's health. We don't refuse treatment to people who are involved in sports injuries, even though most of us wouldn't take part in dangerous sports.

So, suggesting that we limit treatment for people who have not had the vaccine, is just wanting to punish them for not doing something you think they should do.

Alegrias1

Other things, not based on any scientific proof but on various things I've read:

The 12-week gap we used leads to greater and longer-lasting immunity than the 4 week gap.

We're ahead on booster doses.

Other countries all didn't prioritise older people first so there are more older people susceptible even though the overall vaccinated rate is similar.

We got the delta wave earlier and the other countries are just experiencing it now.

The plan of opening up earlier so that we had an exit wave in the summer was actually quite sensible.

Could be all of these, or none of them.

I think you will find that most countries did prioritise the elderly, those in care-homes or with carers coming in at home and those with other serious diagnoses first for vaccination.

Denmark assuredly did, and the EU guidelines state that that and free vaccination was to be the priority.

I feel people are selfish for not wearing masks in busy shops etc. and might inadvertently be spreading Covid. However, there seems to be an, "Oh well. It's just like getting a bad cold" attitude. Can they guarantee that?
Polio, tetanus etc...and remember the smallpox vaccine? Are the refusers anti those as well?

Alegrias1

The slippery slope is about submitting to medical interventions you don't want.

Today, you have to have an injection because it's for everyone's good.

Tomorrow, you have to get sterilised because there are too many people in the world.

I know that's extreme. I'm being provocative.

Alegriasl you make a good point!
They said the first 'horseless carriage' was a great boon to mankind and that it would never exceed safe speed limits - now look at the mess that's made and the havoc for the planet. Mankind's greed for more (*) knows no bounds never has, never will. Power and control are world class currency.

Well what he said was true albeit in rather a blunt manner which is probably not so popular with us British!
I am not anti -vax, indeed I am fully vaccinated myself, but let us remember that it does not provide 100% immunity, so one could be vaccinated and one of the recovered, but hopefully not one of the dead!

There is some stuff in the news today about us being better protected in the UK, despite similar rates of vaccination to the rest of Europe, because we a) more or less let covid rip during the summer, thus ensuring that younger age groups built up natural immunity rather gradually, but, much more importantly, we used Astra Zenica - which seems to confer longer term TCell protection. Unfortunately the continent fell foul of Macron's anti-AZ rhetoric and other fake news, and hence are experiencing much higher rates of serious covid infection.

My personal cocktail of two AZs, one booster Pf, seems to have been the best of all worlds.

A million people a month in Britain are getting covid. At that rate everyone will get it. No need for jabs.

Alegrias is there a vaccination against smoking? None I have heard of but I may be wrong. Does a smoker cough and spread smoking habit to others? I am though aware of a vaccination to help prevent Covid .

Just for info, but 40 something neighbouring farmer to me ,double vaccinated , had young kids who tested positive with covid, mild colds, but the dad, in hospital for a over a week awful inflammation of lungs..home now, very weak and gaunt in the face.. another neighbour,in his 40s, kids at same school, not vaccinated , ill at home for a week , kids again just mild colds..wife vaccinated, had a headache for a week, other wise no symptoms..whether or not vaccinated, it seems to be a lottery, or depends on levels of immune resistance, whether a person's body goes into immune over drive or what.and state of health, obesity ,existing health problems age etc...