Refusing an unvaccinated person entry to a club or organisation

There clearly is a greater risk to people from those who are unvaccinated or the whole issue of vaccine passports would never have arisen.

The reason that the issue of vaccine passports arose was to try to convince as many people as possible to get vaccinated which is a good thing generally for society. Not to keep the unvaccinated away from the virtuous.

I do not think the solution is clear cut.

There clearly is a greater risk to people from those who are unvaccinated or the whole issue of vaccine passports would never have arisen.

I also understand that that equally there is a greater risk to the unvaccinated from those who are (well from everyone).

Our wish is to try and protect everyone as best we can, given two important factors: singing is a high risk activity and some of our members are vulnerable.

The rule is:

"To get a digital NHS COVID Pass for domestic events and venues, you need one of the following.
To be fully vaccinated with a COVID-19 vaccine used in the UK"

If the vaccination is deemed necessary to enter some venues and to acquire a pass (see above), then by definition the scientists must believe that this makes those visiting the venues safer.

What? we are now saying long standing members can now bar people from their group. I hope these groups are really clear about what they are doing so I can avoid those group and avoid donating to them etc.

I’m really uncomfortable with the idea of unvaccinated people being barred from attending events.

No, but the question is much more complex than that.

And, as Aveline says
But you vaccinated members are much more of a risk to her than vice versa! You're protected but can still transmit the infection but she's not protected at all!!

What would happen if one of the long standing members admitted that she hadn't been vaccinated but still wanted to sing?

Just ask the other members- and then be honest. If there is strong opposition to non-vaccinated taking part- then just be honest and say 'existing members are not comfortable with this, and they have to come first' - or not, depending on reaction.

''So do we favour her rights over these longstanding members?''

Long standing members, surely.

Teacheranne

I am a member of the WI in England and we are not allowed to ask people’s vaccination status nor ask for the results of a LFT. We do have strict Covid guidelines to follow and we have to complete a risk assessment for every meeting in order for our insurance to be valid. So we ask members to do an LFT, wear masks while moving around, use hand sanitiser etc. The committee have to clean certain high touch areas before a meeting, we have chairs socially distanced and door and windows open for ventilation. So lots of precautions but we cannot turn people away who do not comply.

Sounds sensible, Teacheranne.

We are going down a dangerous route otherwise.

It is also up to individual groups and members to decide, I think.
Our local TWG has postponed meetings pro tem. Some U3A meetings are by zoom again but others are meeting in person and it's up to the individual whether or not to attend.

we have chairs socially distanced and door and windows open for ventilation.
I went to such a meeting in November and we all froze!

But you vaccinated members are much more of a risk to her than vice versa! You're protected but can still transmit the infection but she's not protected at all!!

She rang and asked for details of the choir and I told her all she needed to know and arranged for her to attend the first rehearsal for this year which is next week.

She then rang back to tell me she was not vaccinated, nor all her family - and that this was by choice rather than for a medical reason. So - she did the right thing, and will, I think, accept it if we ask her to defer coming till the pandemic is not as rife as it currently is here.

It is a bit of a juggling act as the choir is much diminished by the Welsh rules that state no more than 30 in a room with 2 metre distancing; masks to be worn (yes - we do sing in them); and hand sanitising and all that sort of stuff.

The other side of the coin is that there are definitely some members who would not come if they knew that this lady was in their midst. So do we favour her rights over these longstanding members?

It is a conundrum.

How did you even know her vaccination status, was the information volunteered or was she asked?

I bet this was an interesting conversation.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10380319/Unjabbed-doctor-challenges-Sajid-Javid-compulsory-vaccines-NHS-staff.html

Galaxy

The WI will have access to legal advice, HR and just all sorts of support that small groups wont. My guess is their decision making is more reliable.

This ^^

Tricky really. Once all the shouting about antivaxers started, our choir committee decided to make vaccination a requirement for attending or joining members, so those applying do know this. However, we don’t ask for certification, just take it on trust.
I’ve no idea about the legality of this, we just did it and there’ve been no complaints so far from the new folk.
It was easy with existing members. Even before the rule came in we were keen to say where we were on the vaccination trail and which vaccine we’ve been given.

Personally I wouldn’t put too much reliance on LFTs.

Over Christmas (3 days) our extended family group consisted of 6 adults in their 40s, 4 ditto in their 70s, and 3 children aged 6, 5, and nearly 2.
Just before getting together, every single one of us had (LF) tested negative, and all adults were triple jabbed.

By the evening of the 28th, every single one of us except the baby had tested positive, and she did a couple of days later.

Only one of the adults has had anything but very mild symptoms, but the positive tests have caused a lot of inconvenience and disappointment - booked activities needing to be cancelled, not to mention headaches over childcare for 3 children this week, since parents need to work from home while 2 were unable to go to school, and the youngest - still positive yesterday - to the childminder.

So I’d be telling her sorry, but no, OP. If she chooses not to be vaccinated, she must accept that certain things are off limits.

You don't seem to have much faith in your vaccine!

The WI will have access to legal advice, HR and just all sorts of support that small groups wont. My guess is their decision making is more reliable.

Galaxy

Thank God for the sanity of the WI

I agree with you Galaxy.
Whilst I think anti vaxers are misguided, I also feel strongly about discrimination, so I find myself in a morally difficult position.
Choirs bring such pleasure and can make such a difference to mental health and wellbeing. I wish I could sing!
I expect many of us are ambivalent about the rights of those who have chosen not to be vaccinated. It will be interesting to hear the view of the legal profession.

Thank God for the sanity of the WI

I have done my best to stay in and am very thorough about mask wearing, etc. I have been fully vaccinated, but do have concerns re omicron, but I cannot bear to stay in much longer and forgo a barely normal life. Living on my own, I am really beginning to struggle and feel sometimes life will never be the same again. So I struggle to go out, but once out it feels good to be part of life again. Not vaccinated I would never leave the house, so these anti vaxxers are obviously not afraid of catching covid, or spreading it to others. It makes me so cross.

Our bridge club only allow fully vaccinated members to play

It certainly happens here. No vax no entry is the order of the day for most clubs. Most are vaccinated by now though. We have just one person at Probus who is anti vax and unfortunately she has had to leave. I think this is very sad, personally and shades of Big Brother only worse.

I personally think it would be very extreme to leave the choir if she joined you have no idea if you are standing next to an ‘unvaccinated one’ in the butchers or bakers as she is willing to do a test each time and as she was upfront and didn’t have to say anything I think she’s been fair however if everyone else wants to leave or not turn up if she’s on board maybe ask her to wait, say you’re taking no one new on till after the restrictions lift
and to wear a mask - which we all do anyway s this is Wales. How do you sing with masks on ?

Difficult .. I suppose she didn't have to tell you she was unvaccinated? So at least she was upfront about her lunacy.

Having said that, I would leave the choir if I were a member and she joined now that her status is known.

Mind you, I kind of feel all of you who're continuing to go to choir meetings at the moment are being rather (take your pick) foolish/overly optimistic/blind to the risks)