UK are first in Europe with Over 150,000 deaths

Mummer

Visgirl
I do think they would have adopted an apolitical stance as they have with voting WITH gov on matters where public interest is at stake. NHS is far far too important to be politicised anyway it should have all party input and not be able to be mucked about with. Y successive 'new broom' health ministers!!!! I cannot believe any one can speak in favour of conservative gov at ALL! Bunch of workshy layabouts waiting for a peerage!

It's inevitable that the NHS is "politicised" because it involves the allocation of public money.

Anniel

As per usual. Every negative is found. I don’t rely on tabloids. I read WorldOMeters. You are really saying our scientists are rubbish, that the NHS is underfunded etc. However, I want to ask just how much will ever be enough. The NHS gets the most money of any public service so do tell how critics would fund it. I am dissatisfied with Boris too, but I keep thinking that the people at the top of NHS and other civil servants are not always of great calibre and it is not always politicians who are to blame!

I don't think anybody is claiming "our scientists" are rubbish - unless I've missed something. My partner happens to be one of them - and I don't think his work is rubbish (well, I don't think it is anyway). However, I think the public needs to be aware that there all sorts of "scientists" and the ones the media drag out aren't necessarily the most expert and some have an agenda of their own. I think people also need to be aware of the spin put on scientific opinion by journalists and politicians.

PS. The NHS is underfunded compared with other developed countries.

Nobody said our scientists are rubbish. And most scientists don't consider themselves "our scientists", they're just "scientists".

Anniel

As per usual. Every negative is found. I don’t rely on tabloids. I read WorldOMeters. You are really saying our scientists are rubbish, that the NHS is underfunded etc. However, I want to ask just how much will ever be enough. The NHS gets the most money of any public service so do tell how critics would fund it. I am dissatisfied with Boris too, but I keep thinking that the people at the top of NHS and other civil servants are not always of great calibre and it is not always politicians who are to blame!

The UK spends less per head on healthcare than nearly every other developed country.

railman I accept your point and wasn't suggesting that anybody forgets.

However, I'm a pragmatist and the current priorities must be to look forward rather than engaging in tit-for-tat party politics.

Reflecting on the past is a separate issue.

As per usual. Every negative is found. I don’t rely on tabloids. I read WorldOMeters. You are really saying our scientists are rubbish, that the NHS is underfunded etc. However, I want to ask just how much will ever be enough. The NHS gets the most money of any public service so do tell how critics would fund it. I am dissatisfied with Boris too, but I keep thinking that the people at the top of NHS and other civil servants are not always of great calibre and it is not always politicians who are to blame!

Kali2

Just as we reach this terrible figure- news are that Lateral Flow tests will no longer be available for free- and possibly not at all.

So no more testing for work and school, etc. But no testing before visiting vulnerable mother, GC or friend, either. Will they still be available to vist loved ones in hospital or care homes? Not the right time for this, for sure.

They will be available but will have to be paid for, as they are in other countries.

Visgirl
I do think they would have adopted an apolitical stance as they have with voting WITH gov on matters where public interest is at stake. NHS is far far too important to be politicised anyway it should have all party input and not be able to be mucked about with. Y successive 'new broom' health ministers!!!! I cannot believe any one can speak in favour of conservative gov at ALL! Bunch of workshy layabouts waiting for a peerage!

Visgir1

railman

Thisismyname1953

You said; "...but do we really think that Labour would have done it better?"

Short answer is yes - they certainly could not have done any worse.

No party has to deal with anything like this before.
So No, I don't think the Labour Party would have been better.

We'll have to agree to disagree then Visgirl

The un vaxxed have ball all to do with this damning figure! Countries with much lower rates have lesser fatalities. It's the absolute arrogance and greed of the current gov. Putting political polpularity and business interests above all else. If NHS had not been on its absolute knees going into this , we may have been able to avert some terrible outcomes. But squarely I believe gov and particularly the cabinet hold the guilt firmly on their heads.....

maddyone

I’d certainly like to know how it was achieved by Japan.

Possibly because of the much maligned use of Ivermectin in Japan.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1GF0H9V_1g

railman

Thisismyname1953

You said; "...but do we really think that Labour would have done it better?"

Short answer is yes - they certainly could not have done any worse.

No party has to deal with anything like this before.
So No, I don't think the Labour Party would have been better.

growstuff - you make some interesting arguments in your post, but I might disagree with the last few words of what you say here:
"The government could and should be criticised for all sorts of things, such as crony contracts, putting party politics before the needs of the country, breaking its own rules, appalling messaging and much more, but we are where we are now and need to deal with the present and the future."

If we accept your statement that "...we are where we are now..."

Wrongdoers would never be tracked down and their actions tested in law.

Our present 'government' wants us to begin forgetting their errors of judgement and inappropriate and illegal activities - I imagine that is why they are putting off the public inquiry as long as they can. Perhaps until after the next elections.

We have to keep these stories in the media and in our minds.

I'm sorry to read about your husband MaggsMcG.

It saddens me that an obsession with numbers and comparing countries ignores the individual tragedies behind every single death.

I agree with you that comparisons aren't that meaningful, although I also think it's arrogant to think the UK can't learn from other countries. You're right that it could be worse - thank goodness some notice has been taken of worst case scenarios.

Thisismyname1953

You said; "...but do we really think that Labour would have done it better?"

Short answer is yes - they certainly could not have done any worse.

A number of posters have commented that we should not perhaps be comparing numbers, without context, and I would agree.

Except - we have suffered the consequences of electing an ineffective, inept and incompetent bunch of MPs as a 'government' whose actions and inactions inexorably led to higher unnecessary deaths, and prolonged illness.

The under investment in NHS and social care was and remains a deliberate act by this government, with people as collateral damage in the pursuit of privatisation of healthcare by stealth. We have already privatised pathology and domestic services in hospitals, amongst many other activities - including servicing equipment I suspect.

This government deliberately tried to pursue a 'herd immunity' policy by stealth, and took measures too late, and did not enforce them when they could. The development of a standalone test and trace system was a failure even from its initial testing - but I wouldn't be surprised if some donors made something out of that somewhere.

The UK has always been playing catch up, and the pretence that the 'leaders' were in some way balancing economic impact against health impacts is laughable. If you don't have people in work you don't have an economy.

The vaccination effort was the only creditable action that was a success, but the actions in the summer of 2021 have tarnished that success. Messaging and leadership is everything in this scenario - the writing was writ large on the wall from the reports on "Exercise Cygnus" in 2016 - which was ignored.

You can't really compare countries by figures alone. There's so many other things that I fluency the figures. Also not all countries are using the same criteria to count covid deaths. Whilst 150,000 is far to many, my husband being one of them, it could have been even worse.

Let’s not get too carried away. 13th best/worst out of 44 countries in Europe, given we are an island too, is not actually that marvellous, particularly as only two of the other European countries who have fared worse than the UK are relatively wealthy nations. Our performance is at best average, we’d be in the lower half of the premiership if this was football.

Our population is very dense in our many large towns - and we are a very highly mobile people, both in the UK and between UK and rest of the world. Given it was a novel highly infectious, dangerous pathogen - we've done pretty well - very sad though it has been. Its easy to be wise after the event. The government has had to carefully walk between the extremes of lockdowners and its just a cold believers.

Tulpia

If one looks at the European deaths per million of population, the UK were 13th in December 2021.

www.statista.com/statistics/1111779/coronavirus-death-rate-europe-by-country/

Sorry if this doesn't fit in with some people's political agenda.

No political agenda here. It isn't a league table.

Thisismyname1953

Whatever the numbers , this pandemic has cost the country an absolute fortune . It’s not going to go away and eventually we will have to stop testing for it . We can moan about how the Tory party have dealt with it but do we really think that Labour would have done it better . None of the government have had to deal with a pandemic before and for many months they just had to do what they thought best with scientific guidelines.
People had to do what they thought best until they knew the virus better and I’m not just talking about those in charge . Even joe public we’re making decisions about their lives because they didn’t know how the virus was going to behave . Quarantine your Mail for 3 days anybody? Wash your shopping? Showering and disinfecting your clothes when you’d been out?
Later on we we learnt it was only airborne and all the other precautions were unnecessary. Hindsight is a marvellous thing .
The virus will hang about for a few years yet and we will stop testing sooner than you think so we also won’t be counting numbers at all , will we ?

Are you suggesting that people should just ignore it?

I disagree. There is no single magic formula, but we need to make some adjustments and mitigate risk.

IMO "learning to live with the virus" includes people changing behaviour in relatively minor ways to protect the most vulnerable. I do not accept that asking people to wear masks in public places is a major imposition for the vast majority. People need to know whether they're infected, so need to continue to be able to test themselves, if there's a need. Incidentally, it seems that there still needs to be education about when LFTs are appropriate. The government needs to face up up to the issues in schools and provide funding for adequate ventilation and air filtration. There needs to be a robust programme for online learning when there's an outbreak in schools. Posturing about "keeping schools open at any cost" needs to stop.

There should be guaranteed funding for ongoing research into vaccinations, so that future mutations can be dealt with head on. There needs to be transparency about the side effects of vaccinations and as many people as possible should be encouraged to get vaccinated. Myths and scare stories need to be challenged.

The country's leaders should be setting an example and an effort made to restore trust.

We need to accept that Long Covid will be an issue and specialist units need to be set up to research it and treat it, if possible. The benefits system needs to support people to self-isolate, if necessary, and recognise that some people's ability to work will be affected by long-term issues.

The pandemic has revealed gaping holes in the NHS and social care and these need to be addressed with extra funding. No more empty promises about 40 new hospitals and goodness knows how many additional nurses and doctors! And stop undermining the NHS by introducing more private provision and selling off to commercial organisations.

I could go on, but I've probably bored the pants off people already. Please note that I haven't "moaned about the Tories" or brought party politics into the debate. The government could and should be criticised for all sorts of things, such as crony contracts, putting party politics before the needs of the country, breaking its own rules, appalling messaging and much more, but we are where we are now and need to deal with the present and the future.

If one looks at the European deaths per million of population, the UK were 13th in December 2021.

www.statista.com/statistics/1111779/coronavirus-death-rate-europe-by-country/

Sorry if this doesn't fit in with some people's political agenda.

Whatever the numbers , this pandemic has cost the country an absolute fortune . It’s not going to go away and eventually we will have to stop testing for it . We can moan about how the Tory party have dealt with it but do we really think that Labour would have done it better . None of the government have had to deal with a pandemic before and for many months they just had to do what they thought best with scientific guidelines.
People had to do what they thought best until they knew the virus better and I’m not just talking about those in charge . Even joe public we’re making decisions about their lives because they didn’t know how the virus was going to behave . Quarantine your Mail for 3 days anybody? Wash your shopping? Showering and disinfecting your clothes when you’d been out?
Later on we we learnt it was only airborne and all the other precautions were unnecessary. Hindsight is a marvellous thing .
The virus will hang about for a few years yet and we will stop testing sooner than you think so we also won’t be counting numbers at all , will we ?

Caro57

Means nothing until it is converted into % of population/ age groups etc. also compare with current flu etc deaths

I've already given the figures for the number of people who die annually from flu and pneumonia. The number varies from year to year, but they're approximately a third of the number of people who have died from Covid.

PS. Approximately 1600 people die in road traffic accidents every year - hardly any of them from falling under a bus!

It's all very well saying that people would have died anyway, but I wouldn't think that's much consolation to their families.