NHS workers who refuse vaccine

I read that article too MOnica and I really would urge people, especially those who spend a fortune on supplements to "boost their immune system", to read it too.

Before vaccination whooping cough and measles killed children and left many with life long disabilities, as also did mumps.

It is too easy to forget just how damaging these diseases could be, now vaccines have been around so long.

I read this article today. www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60171592 It shows just how complicated the immune system is.your immune system, I have doubts whether a blood test can test the strength of your immune system. Yes it can count what level all the various cells that make up the system stand at, but it cannot tell you whether the average count is the right one for you. there are so many other things happening in our bodies, from genetic factors to other illnesses we may be harbouring.

It is a bit like allergies. For one person milk is an intgral part of their diet, for others, it makes them ill.

Baggs

^ But the main point is that your experience cannot be extrapolated into an action plan for the wider population.^

Of course not. Has anyone suggested that it could be?

To be honest no, I think when you started talking about 'natural immunity' my 'Oh my god, it's Laurence Fox' gene kicked in.

Of course you didn't say that - mea culpa.

Anyway, tata for now. I’m off to bed. Up at 5 and all that. Happy zzzzzzs all

Ignore that last line!

As I understand it, the fall in take up of MMR has much to do with the pandemic and parents finding it hard to access. My GD started school last year and my son & dil had to fight to get her booster done beforehand. No one wanted to do it.

Ditto for them with the flu vaccine this autumn just past. The school gave less than 48hrs notice of the clinic taking place, thus many parents hadn’t signed the permission form (we’ve all been there with the scruffy note at the bottom of the school bag!) and their child couldn’t be given the flu vax.

Also, if your child was away from school when the clinic took place (maybe you were isolating) there was no provision for catching up with those who didn’t get it first time round.

There was also the problem of late

There is some research links on this thread, but, on the whole, it's a chat forum with anecdotes.

^ But the main point is that your experience cannot be extrapolated into an action plan for the wider population.^

Of course not. Has anyone suggested that it could be?

TB.
How can this happen in the 21st century in a uk hospital.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/may/29/closest-friend-biggest-enemy-can-i-make-sense-of-my-sisters-life-and-death

^You mentioned one yourself - you have been exposed yourself and fought it off^;

Do you mean Baggs?

Although those of us over a certain age on here presumably had measles, chickenpox, mumps as a child. Obviously I hadn't had rubella.
I can still remember having measles. I had chickenpox mildly but it can, of course, be reactivated as shingles so I can't understand why there's not a routine vaccination in the UK.

My DD caught measles from the measles vaccine.

Callistemon21

The rubella vaccine wasn't routine when I was young either, Baggs.
And I never did have another pregnancy either.

Measles is on the increase, Petera but that cannot be due to the Wakefield influence now, surely? That was 24 years ago and has been discredited.

My DD had a reaction to the measles vaccine, not serious enough to require hospitalisation but very worrying at the time.

Of course I can’t answer directly for one person - as mentioned immunity is really a 'herd' thing. But several scenarios are possible. You mentioned one yourself - you have been exposed yourself and fought it off; but in this case it's highly likely it was a very weak strain. It also true that genetic differences just mean that some people are immune to some things - this has been directly observed in TB and even more recently people who are immune to HIV have been identified.

But the main point is that your experience cannot be extrapolated into an action plan for the wider population.

Callistemon21

Baggs

And I never did have another pregnancy either.

?? I don't understand this bit, calli.

I was more or less forced to have a rubella vaccine just after DC3's arrival in case I got pregnant again.

Rubella in pregnancy can cause abnormalities in the unborn baby , including blindness.

OK, got you now. Yes, the known risks during pregnancy were what made me go and ask for a blood test before any pregnancies. The test showed I was immune to rubella so I guess I'd had it really mildly.

Which is sort of weird because my younger sister had a bad case of it right after she had the vaccine at school and then my mum, by then in her forties and after having five healthy kids, had a bad case of rubella too! I asked her hadn't she been terrified when pregnant but she said no, she usually felt euphoric. Also, I think people of her generation were much more used to high levels of risk (not just of illness) than we are.

Baggs

^And I never did have another pregnancy either.^

?? I don't understand this bit, calli.

I was more or less forced to have a rubella vaccine just after DC3's arrival in case I got pregnant again.

Rubella in pregnancy can cause abnormalities in the unborn baby , including blindness.

I thought measles is on the increase because enough kids are not being vaccinated so herd immunity is inadequate. I think the Wakefield rot is still having an effect even though it was a long time ago.

And I never did have another pregnancy either.

?? I don't understand this bit, calli.

The rubella vaccine wasn't routine when I was young either, Baggs.
And I never did have another pregnancy either.

Measles is on the increase, Petera but that cannot be due to the Wakefield influence now, surely? That was 24 years ago and has been discredited.

My DD had a reaction to the measles vaccine, not serious enough to require hospitalisation but very worrying at the time.

Petera

Baggs

Callistemon21

By the way how do you know that your immune system is healthy? There is no way of measuring it

Well, there is but it would require regular blood tests.

I base my judgment of mine on historical references such as natural immunity to rubella and TB. I presume my immune system must have encountered them at some point unknown and told them where to get off.

1.5 million people died of TB in 2020, it's the second highest infection killer after COVID and presumably poised to regain first place. TB is still classed as an epidemic.
The reason you are unlikely to catch it is not because you have a better immune system than these people who died, but because you live in a society where - if it occurs, and it does - it is treated rapidly and therefore the risk of transmission from person to person is significantly lower. Bacterial infections are typically treated by antibiotics after the event, in the COVID case the viral infection can be controlled before you even catch it – sounds like a win-win to me.
And the number of diseases that have been eliminated worldwide is vanishingly small. So small that nearly everyone can name it. A handful (literally) of other diseases - Polio, Diphtheria, Yellow Fever, Malaria and Measles (now making a strong comeback thanks to Andrew Bloody Wakefield) - have been all but eradicated in the ‘West’ but it’s only kept that way by vigilance, not by our immune systems.
As for all the others, people still catch them and have to be treated – TB, Black Death, Scarlet Fever, whooping cough - they’re all still here.

I understand what you're saying, petera, but where would my immunity to TB have come from if I hadn't been exposed to it somehow and without having been vaccinated?

Similarly with rubella.

I have never had the BCG or rubella vaccines but according to tests I have immunity to both.

Please note, I only haven't had those vaccines because I was already immune when I would otherwise have been getting them. Everyone else in my year at school got the BCG vaccine. I didn't need it. I didn't need it two and a half decades later either when I was planning to work in a country where it was rife.
Rubella vaccine only became routinely available in the school year after mine but a blood test when I first got married showed I was already immune to that too, so presumably, in both cases, I had "caught" the diseases and, luckily, dealt with them without anyone knowing I was infected.

If there is a better explanation I'll be happy to hear it.

Many NHS workers including nurses are badly educated. It is a poorly paid profession and people who can get better rewards become doctors not nurses.

In the old days when nurses were subject to quasi military discipline poor general education was not a problem as nurses at that period expected to do as they were told.

there was a meeting in the local park here last sunday. It was an anti vax meeting using the bandstand as a 'pulpit' to speak to the gathering said to be dentists doctors ambulance people....according to the local press in which I read about it!

anyone heard about the ' A Stand In The Park' I googled it,

A WORLDWIDE 'free-choice' movement against lockdowns ect......Stand In The Park, a movement which originated in Australia, has become synonymous for protesting against lockdowns and government regulations following the pandemic.

Callistemon21

^whooping cough^
Yes, I do realise!!
I remember the scares about the whooping cough vaccine and didn't let one of my DD have it. She did catch whooping cough (as did I as a child) and I hope developed antibodies against.
The scare about the vaccine at the time was very worrying.

I had it too as a child. It was awful

whooping cough
Yes, I do realise!!
I remember the scares about the whooping cough vaccine and didn't let one of my DD have it. She did catch whooping cough (as did I as a child) and I hope developed antibodies against.
The scare about the vaccine at the time was very worrying.

Baggs

Callistemon21

By the way how do you know that your immune system is healthy? There is no way of measuring it

Well, there is but it would require regular blood tests.

I base my judgment of mine on historical references such as natural immunity to rubella and TB. I presume my immune system must have encountered them at some point unknown and told them where to get off.

1.5 million people died of TB in 2020, it's the second highest infection killer after COVID and presumably poised to regain first place. TB is still classed as an epidemic.
The reason you are unlikely to catch it is not because you have a better immune system than these people who died, but because you live in a society where - if it occurs, and it does - it is treated rapidly and therefore the risk of transmission from person to person is significantly lower. Bacterial infections are typically treated by antibiotics after the event, in the COVID case the viral infection can be controlled before you even catch it – sounds like a win-win to me.
And the number of diseases that have been eliminated worldwide is vanishingly small. So small that nearly everyone can name it. A handful (literally) of other diseases - Polio, Diphtheria, Yellow Fever, Malaria and Measles (now making a strong comeback thanks to Andrew Bloody Wakefield) - have been all but eradicated in the ‘West’ but it’s only kept that way by vigilance, not by our immune systems.
As for all the others, people still catch them and have to be treated – TB, Black Death, Scarlet Fever, whooping cough - they’re all still here.

Jerseygal

Vaccination has always been about your Health not others. It's about your personal health not others. Propaganda to say Unvaccinated are Selfish. Vaccinated can get Sick. Why not say "it's Selfish getting Sick" which makes no sense. It's about "Treatment" for the Virus. It's about a Employers Sick Policy so you Stay home & not lose your Job. Firing Employees for "Not being Sick" makes No Sense. It's about a Healthy Immune System VS Unhealthy System Immune.

The problem is in the first sentence, and I agree that this is always how - at least in popular culture - vaccination has been presented.

But talk to anyone who actually works in this field and it very quickly becomes apparent that vaccination is not about individual's health, that's only a highly positive by-product. It's about limiting the reservoir of people that the virus can thrive in so reducing the likelihood of transmission.

Baggs I actually don’t know whether or not I would have been refused treatment because the situation for me did not arise. I seem to recall something in the information I was given beforehand saying that you had to have a PCR test at the hospital. I just think if NHS staff have the choice not to be vaccinated patients should also be given the choice of whether or not they wish to be treated by someone unvaccinated. I’m not talking about naming names or anything just knowing if the team treating you are vaccinated or not. I accept that during a real emergency it would make no difference I would obviously want treatment. Finally it’s because the majority of people who care have opted for vaccination that the anti-vaxers can refuse because those who are vaccinated are reducing their chances of catching covid and becoming ill.