Excess deaths Pandemic legacy

No, it is more to do with the 100% determination of the government in Chins, specifically the current leader, Xi Jinping to have absolute control over the actions of every inhabitant 24/7. Plus, of course, the moral superiority of saying how their system that depends on forcing conformity on everyone is more successful than the political systems in the rest of the world.

Makes you consider whether China knows something that we don't?

China is following a zero COVID policy, which is somewhat different to what we had. The purpose of our lockdown was to slow the progress of the disease so that the NHS didn't break under the pressure of high demand.

If lockdowns cause ongoing financial problems how come China’s economy seems to be doing ok

If lockdowns work why has Wuhan just come out of another lockdown
Why keep repeating something that doesn’t work.

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/27/china-locks-down-part-of-wuhan-nearly-three-years-after-first-covid-case-emerged

MP Andrew Bridgen was recently speaking to a parliamentary panel, it's on the official government YouTube channel, when he mentioned the excess death rate, in the UK, Europe and Americas. He asked about analysis and said that there a correlation between level of excess deaths and rates of vaccination in different countries. Food for thought?

That is correct. It isn't the COVID causing the deaths, it is the poor treatment they get when they seek help if they have a heart attack or stroke. Delays in ambulance responses and long waiting lists for any surgery or other treatment needed.

MOnica Check what you actually wrote: "This puts paid to all those arguments that this rise in deaths from heart disease is linked to either COVID itself or the vaccinations against it."

No, it doesn't put paid to arguments that the rise in deaths from heart disease is linked to Covid. Quite the reverse is true and there at least six projects currently being funded to research the connection. There is also research on the link between diabetes and Covid.

It is highly likely that both have been caused directly by Covid.

Do people really think that COVID has been vanquished? I have yet to hear anyone say anything like that.

It certainly isn't being said in this country where we are constantly being told to be careful, to keep sanitising our hands and news sites like the BBC still have a special section headed 'corona virus' alongside 'Ukraine', 'Scotland',' Politics' etc.

What we have been told is that COVID is here to stay and that we are going to have to accept that and that the vaccine, which is constantly being changed and improved, has drastically reduced the number affected by the disease and its severity, but certainly no suggestions that it is vanquished. If only.

growstuff

Article from the Sydney Morning Herald about excess deaths and "living with Covid":

www.smh.com.au/national/the-notion-that-covid-19-has-been-vanquished-is-not-supported-by-the-facts-20221031-p5budz.html

Well I think that this article pretty much sums up the current situation. Ignoring the facts will not help, no matter how inconvenient they may be

Again the article and research I mentioned wasn't talking about excess deaths during the pandemic. We all know that several hundred thousand people in Britain died of COVID and its complications

The research was specifically looking at an increase in heart attacks and strokes and specifically how slow ambulance response times and increasing waiting lists for cardiac surgery mean that many people who previously would have survived if treated promtly. These circumstances apply whether the person's heart attack or stroke is related to COVID or has another cause.

As for lockdown I have never mentioned it or said anything about it. growstuff I do wish you would stop introducing red herrings into this discussion

My post was meant as a response to someone who uplist attributed the increase in heart attacks and strokes to the vaccination and suggested that this was the cause of the rise in deaths. I felt the BHF report scotched that silly idea throughly and should be brought to the attention of anyone who might have thought this misinformation is true.

Quokka

I’m expecting the enquiry, when it eventually comes out, to find that delaying lockdown contributed to the spread of Covid and therefore excess deaths.

That is just one factor.

Others include the way the elderly in care homes were exposed, delaying of mask-wearing, Eat Out to Help Out, and so on.

I don't think there's much doubt that it is Covid which has either directly or indirectly caused excess deaths. I get quite cross when it is implied, as the headline in the op does, that lockdowns caused the excess deaths.

Lockdowns didn't cause deaths. It's perhaps debatable whether they were the most efficient way of preventing, or at least slowing down, transmission, but it is Covid itself which has caused the excess deaths. Lockdowns were a last ditch attempt to slow transmission because it was obvious that people wouldn't voluntarily self-isolate or keep away from others. Most transmission happened between people who knew those infected, so whole households needed to be isolated. There wasn't enough support for people to do that and there was a handful who refused to comply.

Covid cannot be equated with flu. It is not primarily a virus causing respiratory disease. It causes blood clots which block oxygen to all the major organs of the body.

I am cynical about whether the enquiry will tell the complete picture.

Article from the Sydney Morning Herald about excess deaths and "living with Covid":

www.smh.com.au/national/the-notion-that-covid-19-has-been-vanquished-is-not-supported-by-the-facts-20221031-p5budz.html

I’m expecting the enquiry, when it eventually comes out, to find that delaying lockdown contributed to the spread of Covid and therefore excess deaths.

That is just one factor.

Others include the way the elderly in care homes were exposed, delaying of mask-wearing, Eat Out to Help Out, and so on.

M0nica

^it is also known that Covid leaves many people with long-term (maybe lifelong) organ (including heart) damage.^
growstuff

The BHF report refers to heart attacks and strokes. I know nothing about organ damage.

I was quite specific about this and it is clearly stated in the last sentence of my post.

Well, doctors and scientists are very well aware of organ damage. That's why some of them are now researching the effects of Long Covid. It's been shown in various studies how many organs are affected by Covid, which is why the people who claim that's it just like flu or a bad cold are talking nonsense. Why do you think people like Derek Draper are still so ill or children's author, Michael Rosen, has lost his hearing in one ear?

it is also known that Covid leaves many people with long-term (maybe lifelong) organ (including heart) damage.
growstuff

The BHF report refers to heart attacks and strokes. I know nothing about organ damage.

I was quite specific about this and it is clearly stated in the last sentence of my post.

M0nica

A British Heart Foundation report has found that 30,000 people have died needlessly from cardiac conditions since the start of the Pandemic.

It gives as the main causes that ambulance response times to calls about suspected heart attacks is now 48 minutes, when it is mean to be 18, while the backlog of people awaiting cardiac care has grown by 50% to 350,000 people. Countless others with conditions like high blood pressure that make them more at risk of heart attacks and strokes are simply not being identified or being seen by GPs. www.bhf.org.uk/what-we-do/news-from-the-bhf/news-archive/2022/november/extreme-heart-care-disruption-linked-to-excess-deaths-involving-heart-disease.

This puts paid to all those arguments that this rise in deaths from heart disease is linked to either COVID itself or the vaccinations against it.

It doesn't put paid to the argument.

There is no doubt that routine reviews have been affected by staff shortages and Covid backlog. It's also true that ambulance waiting times have increased BUT it is also known that Covid leaves many people with long-term (maybe lifelong) organ (including heart) damage.

The biggest increases in excess Covid deaths have been in patients with circulatory problems and diabetes. If it were simply a case that external factors had contributed to the deaths, we would see excess deaths across a whole spectrum of conditions.

DH was put on blood thinners last year after he had a blood clot on his leg. He had been to outpatients several times to get it sorted. He has had a blood test recently but when he had his shingles vaccination the other week the nurse ( a new one at the practice but someone I know from years ago and very thorough and professional) took his blood pressure and was shocked that he hadn’t had a medication review.No one has looked at his leg since he was put on the medication. He was only supposed to be on blood thinners for a year but the nurse said he’d be better off staying on them. I noticed that our practice now only has four doctors: we used to have six.

A British Heart Foundation report has found that 30,000 people have died needlessly from cardiac conditions since the start of the Pandemic.

It gives as the main causes that ambulance response times to calls about suspected heart attacks is now 48 minutes, when it is mean to be 18, while the backlog of people awaiting cardiac care has grown by 50% to 350,000 people. Countless others with conditions like high blood pressure that make them more at risk of heart attacks and strokes are simply not being identified or being seen by GPs. www.bhf.org.uk/what-we-do/news-from-the-bhf/news-archive/2022/november/extreme-heart-care-disruption-linked-to-excess-deaths-involving-heart-disease.

This puts paid to all those arguments that this rise in deaths from heart disease is linked to either COVID itself or the vaccinations against it.

There were two reasons for excess deaths.

Firstly, we were not properly prepared for a pandemic, in spite of "rehearsals" having been carried out, our government chose to ignore the advice to stockpile PPE, invest in respirators and make contingency plans.

Secondly, the NHS has been systematically deprived of adequate funding, which should have taken account of demographic changes and technical advances.

The UK response to the Covid pandemic was markedly worse and the excess deaths far worse, than other comparable countries. Why?

BigLouis is right- and it's not common for me to agree with her!

They are being researched, but it's not that easy. The ONS didn't link characteristics such as age, occupation, gender, ethnicity, etc, so it would need somebody to go through every death and record details for each individual. The statistics show a significant increase in deaths from circulatory diseases and diabetes, but the patients' Covid history wasn't necessarily recorded. Graphs show a correlation between Covid surges and deaths from non-Covid causes, but the exact cause isn't proven. It's known that Covid caused long-term damage to a many different organs, including the heart and pancreas, but it's expensive and time-consuming to go through individual patients' records, but it is happening. It's irresponsible of journalists to claim that lockdown caused the deaths because the evidence doesn't support that.

I think that the responses demonstrate exactly what's needed. Research and analysis into the causes of the excess deaths. Apparently it's not just in the UK. It's urgent but there doesn't seem to be any real interest. Which is odd.

Where did you get that information from?

The conditions associated with excess deaths were circulatory diseases and diabetes, both of which have been correlated with Covid.

It is very possible that there will be excess cancer deaths in the future because treatment was delayed, but those statistics haven't shown up yet.

The Office for Health Improvement and Disparities didn't record excess deaths for under 40s, who presumably fell into the 25-49 group. The majority of excess deaths in that group were caused by Covid infection directly.

app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiYmUwNmFhMjYtNGZhYS00NDk2LWFlMTAtOTg0OGNhNmFiNGM0IiwidCI6ImVlNGUxNDk5LTRhMzUtNGIyZS1hZDQ3LTVmM2NmOWRlODY2NiIsImMiOjh9

growstuff

No, the deaths were almost certainly the result of damage caused to the body by Covid after the 28 day cut off. Covid causes systemic damage, which can take time to develop. They would not have been recorded as Covid because they weren't caused by direct infection, but the damage that Covid does.

Have you read the NHS analysis?

The largest demographic for excess deaths are the under 40's who were largely unaffected by the virus so that doesn't make sense. Where is the data that correlates excess deaths to covid ?