The niqab is a misogynist monstrosity

Some years ago in Cairo I was told that many young women were wearing the full fig as a political challenge to the more casual and secular professional class .i assume this may have changed but there were one or two mosques we were told to be careful about and where there were fully veiled young women but hardly an older woman with a covered face. I have an intense dislike for it in this country. I'm not sure what I feel in other countries. I suspect I don't care but here it is wrong.

Every society has norms. Our norms do not allow men to walk around naked in the streets (or women should one be daft enough to do so) and similarly does not accept people covering their faces.

I heard a nurse on the radio this evening saying that if all she was doing was giving someone pills to take they didn't need to see her face, so covering her face at work was not a problem. I am amazed that anyone with so little empathy was even accepted for nurses training. Why not replace all our nurses with robots?

Dressing modestly for both men and women is a requirement of the Qu'ran and the teachings of the prophet.

In general, standards of modesty call for a woman to cover her body, particularly her chest. The Quran calls for women to "draw their head-coverings over their chests" (24:30-31), and the Prophet Muhammad instructed believing women to cover their bodies except for their face and hands.

For men: The minimum amount to be covered is between the navel and the knee.

islam.about.com/od/dress/p/clothing_reqs.htm

Covering the face is not a requirement but is traditional in parts of the Islamic world.

When I've been places where there is a high Muslim community I feel exposed, vulnerable and intimidated by these women in black. There's no exchange of a smile on the bus. I can't communicate with someone who hides from me and almost sort of insulted. As if I'm not good enough to be permitted to see them. I also don't like the feeling of voyeurism on their part. They can watch as if from behind lace curtained windows. I know it's probably because it's very uncommon to see a fully veiled woman in this part of the country so I'm not used to them.
Motor cyclists remove their helmets now and it's much more friendly - and polite.

I gather Jeremy Hunt was getting on this bandwagon by saying he is going to ban face veils in hospital. I would not imagine this is a huge issue and can be dealt with, one trust at a time. I don't agree with the wearing of the niquab in schools or FE colleges as you cannot access a full curriculum dressed like that e.g. science. PE etc I think that should be dealt with one governing body at a time. Ministers should butt out, as they will only put people's backs up.
Same with courts - let the judge decide. One thing's for sure, they would not be allowed to wear the full covering if they were sent to prison.
I worry about the vitamin D status of all these women and girls that are covered up so much - having to do PE with their head, arms and legs covered.

The link that I posted at 15:18:33 is not all there. That's why it isn't working. Not sure what happened there. Perhaps I didn't copy and paste properly. Here it is again: enlightenmentlover.wordpress.com/

I keep hearing and reading in the media that women are 'forced' to wear the niqab. Could someone point me in the right direction of the evidence that women in the UK are 'forced'?

I'm not being an apologist for the niqab but I would like to see the evidence that niqab wearing UK women actually don't want to wear it rather than simply believing the hysterical and often anti-Islamic headlines in the British Press.

The Sun, in particular, seems to be running a truly tasteless campaign if this photo is anything to go by www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/5144338/The-veil-Britains-verdict.html

It seems that this paper which shows a topless girl on Page 3 with pride every day cannot deal with any woman who might want to maintain her modesty in a way that they do not agree with.

HarrietHarman on veil: “A lot of people join this debate out of Islamophobia and I find that very ugly and very poisonous.” #bbcquestiontime

Ken Clarke on veil: "It would be utterly ludicrous to start legislating about what people wear or don’t wear." #bbcquestiontime

Random tweeter on veil: "even here some poor sod keeps getting banged up for going naked"

Whilst I am not personally in favour of face covering, I feel this is a diversionary tactic that detracts from other serious matters.

Very few muslim women dress in this way but many more - particularly young women - may decide to do so as a means of demonstrating their commitment to their community and culture in the face of perceived hostility from the wider community.

I think we should concentrate on rigorously enforcing current laws regarding domestic violence and rape (in all communities), forced marriages and FGM rather than introduce new, and possibly counter-productive laws.

I have simplified my views these days, and just see the wearing of the full face covering as bloody stupid,and extremely bad mannered. The fact that this stupidity is religion or culture based is irrelevant to me. This is especially true in a country such as the UK with completely different cultural norms.

It isn't really about what people wear, it's about whether everyone else can see their face or not. If it were a veil that can be lifted when face to face in a shop or bank or bus or courtroom, nobody would mind at all.That's what everyone else has to do with face-coverings (e.g. motorcycle helmets) when they are communicating face-to-face. This isn't an imposition. It's normal human interaction, which is prevented by the niqab.

The rest of it they can keep.The sack/black bin bag affair, I mean.

Trying to smear all those objecting to the wearing of the burka/niqab where the user interacts with other people in the public sphere as ant-Islamic is a cheap jibe from people who are unable to think of any other justification for the wearing of it.

Nobody wants the niqab banned. If someone wants to wear it when in the street, on public transport, or in a shop, that is fine but in circumstances where they are interacting with people who need to see their faces, in education, in health or welfare roles, in the courts, where security or facial identity is important and working in client interface roles then the niqab is not acceptable

I agree that they need to unveil in official circumstances such as court or if they work in hospitals or schools but I don't see why a woman has to show her face to a bus driver if she doesn't want to.

A doctor was interviewed on the radio. She said she removes her veil as she enters the hospital and spends the day working with an uncovered face but as soon as she leaves work she replaces her veil. She didn't sound like a woman who was forced to cover her face. It was very much her choice.

I can't help thinking we're asking women to give up wearing the veil simply because we don't like it and only using the term 'abuse' to justify it.

What constitutes 'normal human interaction'? Normality to one person may not be normality to someone else. We may think it's normal to see another person's face but to a veiled woman we're the ones who are not normal.

I agree. I can cope with women fully veiled just passing in the street the same as a group of hoodies. But face to face should be on equal terms and in Britain this means barefaced.

I think too that The Sun, by getting all hysterical and entrenched against full face veils, is pushing young Muslim girls into wearing them as an act of rebellion and thus making things worse.

(That first full stop slipped in on it's own!)

I expressly said I saw no problem with wearing the niqab on public transport.

The nurse, not doctor, who was interviewed also said she could see no reason why a patient would need to see her face when she merely administered medication. I do not think than anyone with that mind set, regardless of religion or choice of clothes is suitable for working in a role where they have to interact with patients.

Last time I was in London there was a woman very fully veiled sitting opposite me on the tube. I did feel uncomfortable - exposed almost. I think if I were not well in hospital and feeling groggy a veiled nurse could be quite scary.

I think we should eliminate from the discussion the fact that many of us feel uneasy in the presence of women in burqas and hijab. That isn't a good reason for banning them. In my experience working in areas with a very high Muslim population over 30 years, this is a fairly recent phenomenon among women whose families originate in India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, North and East Africa. I have been told, by educated and assertive women, that they have adopted the full covering from their own free choice. It would be interesting to find out why they have done so.

This country has a long tradition of different immigrant groups arriving, retaining links to their homeland, continuing to practice their religion whilst gradually, often over generations, integrating into their new country.
I enjoyed reading the views expressed on this thread.

I support the right to political/religious freedom of expression. But, I worry about what feels like growing distance between those who chose to express their faith/culture in such a visibly demonstrative way and wider society. I am alienated and alarmed by fundamentalists, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish etc. One of things they all seem to have in common is the view that women are dangerous if given equality.

Lilygran, did you ask any of those intelligent, assertive young women why thy chose to cover up. My own belief is that for some women it's a deliberate statement of political/cultural statement of separateness.

I hope this doesn't sound like an anti faith rant, it isn't meant to be.

I think those young women could make the same "deliberate statement of political/cultural separateness" without covering their faces. As I said earlier, if they want to go around draped in a black cloak, that's fine and easy to interpret in the way you suggest, Iam, but we have a right to see their faces in certain public situtations.

From my pointof view, the face-covering is deliberate anti-social behaviour that no-one else would be allowed to get away with, so why should they?

No. That's too harsh.

Which bit?