School toilets.... locked!

soutra

Further to anti social activities in the toilets, at one of our local Secondaries, newly built about 8(?) years ago, staff and students use the same loos. Much less graffiti (the staff have had to stop!) no smoking, minimal bullying or any unpleasant behaviour as the students never know who will come in next. Took a bit of getting used to, but it is working.

Great strategy Soutra

I may have missed something but it seems to me that everyone is talking about the RIGHTS of pupils being able to go to the toilet when necessary. In my book we don't have RIGHTS without RESPONSIBILITIES ie using the facilities at appropriate times and not interrupting lessons and the education of others.

tiggy that has been a cultural shift over time. At one point in time pupils had no 'voice' and teachers ruled, often with fear and parents tended to , if not actively support the school, certainly not challenge it.

We have got to a point now where schools have become more open, more communicative and cater far more for children's specific needs. Instead of this development being appreciated /valued it seems to have given some the confidence to assert assumed 'rights' to challenge everything including professional decisions, colour of uniforms, types of food served etc etc. The result is that some children do not value schools/education. School leaders/teachers often spend a disproportionate large amount of time sorting out parental requests/ concerns than they do supporting improvements to teaching and the curriculum.

I am not advocating a return to 'the old days' but I think that some families need to be able to empathise more with the needs of other children and not just their own. Schools are mini-societies and help children learn that there is always give and take in life/reationships.
In return schools need to have the minimum amount of 'rules' needed to keep children safe, able to learn and to make good progress in their lessons and enjoy learning.

Like yours, Soutra our primary school's toilets were outside - cold and usually smelly! No wonder my mother used to say I had 'hollow legs'! In the secondary department, we didn't have an indoor loo until we reached the dizzy heights of the fifth year - probably known in England as the Lower 6th.

Surely it is a right to go to the toilet when one needs to? Obviously, if that right is abused then teachers should speak to pupils collectively about it or individually if certain students don't heed the warning.

I do think there is truth in some students not valuing education and I'm not quite sure how that should be addressed. There are so many distractions these days and there are so many expectations that life should be entertaining all the time. It is a very hard job these days being a teacher and I think that, given the challenges, most of them seem to do pretty well.

I think when I was at school, most children just sat and did what they were told without questioning anything. From what I recall, if they were bored in a lesson they just "tuned out" rather than become disruptive. (Though I did go briefly to one co-ed secondary school where an older male English teacher was finally reduced to tears as he tried to read a poem as paper aeroplanes were thrown round the classroom. I found the whole episode so distressing that I said I was going to leave school as soon as I could, but my parents got me into another school).

Although I feel every child should leave school with reasonably good literacy and numeracy skills, I think there is far too much emphasis on academic achievement now. Young people seem to do so many subjects these days that perhaps there is little time to concentrate on "soft skills" like introducing oneself with a smile and a firm handshake, being able to engage in conversation about a range of subjects, etc.

Sorry - I wandered off the subject a bit.

Probably what used to be the Upper Fifth anno

I don't remember desperately needing the loo when I was at school but that could have been because we didn't drink very much. Milk wasn't compulsory in secondary school and I didn't bother with the glass of water at lunchtime.

Drink is everywhere in schools now. Drinking fountains, mineral water and fruit juice on sale, kids allowed to carry bottles of drink in their bags. Is it any wonder they need the loo?

Eloethan I suspect in 99.5% of schools students who genuinely need the toilet during a lesson are able to access one. I was at the theatre yesterday. Running time was just under 2hrs without a break. One member of the audience,a man in his 30s, had to leave during the performance. It was a nuisance and he managed to drag someone's coat along the row with his feet! I am sorr
y if he was unwell but the running time was made clear!!

golden girl

I owe you an apology for not following through on your post which mentioned ERIC.

I have taken more time since posting and I have now checked things out a little more.

Thank you.

greyduster.

Look at the site above,' ERIC', also 'My School Gate , not being allowed to go the toilet during class'. / netmums have a few posts too.

Penstemmon

I did say I didn't want to fall out with anybody over this but to be honest you have appeared to take a very high minded attitude and at no time have you accepted that this could even remotely be happening or is a possible issue of health. You seem to be more concerned to view this as an attack on the teaching profession and basically called kids 'little pissy pants who can't hold it in' and have no right to needing the loo when their body tells them, the teacher will be in charge of their education and all bodily functions. .

I am determined to give this matter a little more attention and hopefully things will be sorted amicably. I think that CCTV is good and I hope greyduster having brought this subject up you will consider it too.

In my first year at Grammar School I was in a maths lesson and unexpectedly I felt my period begin. The school rule was that toilets should not be used during lesson times except in cases of emergency. It was the final lesson of the day and my teacher was a man; I was very shy. It took me about ten minutes to get up the courage to put my hand up and ask to be excused to go to the toilet only to be told that as it was nearly home time I must wait. I sat, in great pain, with an ever growing puddle of blood gathering beneath me. The bell rang and everyone left the classroom except for me, I was too embarrassed to move until I was alone. I ran to the cloakroom, grabbed my coat and ran home with blood covered legs.
Even writing about it now, fifty years later, my cheeks are burning with remembered shame.

Do you mean me Pogs.
I do intend to chat to my sister and to pass on all the useful info (DGN is obviously her DGD!)
Like you, I had no intention of criticising teachers, but I do query the decision, where made, to deny pupils reasonable access to toilets which I consider to be a basic human right.
If bullying or inappropriate behaviour is such an 'issue' in a school that it is felt necessary to close toilets then I think the school has very serious problems.
Some years ago, with another teacher, I conducted a survey on bullying at a large upper school where I was working. Several sites were identified as being 'hotspots', I don't remember toilets being the most popular, these included corridors outside classrooms, pathways sheltered by hedges, queues in the dining room, P.E. changing rooms etc.
The school then seriuosly re-examined its Policy on Bullying.

GA poor you, what an awful experience.

Oldgreymare/greyduster.

My sincere apologies

I am grateful you raised this dilemma it has pushed me into trying to do something!

No probs Pogs.
Let me know how you get on. I can't do too much as I am so far removed from my DGN.
grannyactivist 's post has added to my concerns tho'.

GA, that was a dreadful experience. Nowadays, I think girls are able to speak much more frankly about menstrual issues, even to male teachers, so perhaps that kind of situation will be less likely to occur.

POGS You are wrong, so so wrong! I don't know where I have said anything that makes you think that.

I called kids 'little pissy pants who can't hold it in' and have no right to needing the loo when their body tells them, the teacher will be in charge of their education and all bodily functions. utter nonsense!

I have pointed out that the gaps between lessons / breaks are not so long so most kids should be fine, I have suggested that most schools would make exceptions for kids with medical needs, I have posted a link from a school describing their policy on medical care. Nowhere have I said kids should be made to suffer! It has been my experience, over a long working life in schools that it really is not a major issue! if a kid has a specific need schools cater for them!

I do disagree with your view that there are numbers of children suffering bladder and bowel disorders or anxiety as a result of schools expecting students to use the toilet a break times.

I posted earlier that if a child has a problem with incontinence and, in the case of girls, very heavy periods, then I think the school should be sympathetic and allow him/her to slip away to the loo if need be.

However, I do think that, for the same reason that the lavatories are locked, there will always be that disruptive element who want to go in the middle of lessons just to be awkward, just to demonstrate that they have a 'right' to be able to go when they want, and just to 'cock a snook' at the teacher.

The school should also be clamping down on bullying behaviour - perhaps the lavatories need to be patrolled, or shared with staff as someone posted earlier.

I believe that most pupils after the age of 6 or so are able to last between lessons unless they have a problem in which case I am sure the school will be sympathetic.

roseq

OGM
I just wondered if your great-niece has been bullied in the lavatories at school and that is a reason for wanting to go when no-one else is in there?
Perhaps some gentle questioning could elicit more information.
It is disruptive for the teacher and the rest of the class if children want to keep going off to the loo during lesson time - one does it then they all start thinking about doing it.

I hope whatever the problem is, it gets sorted.

I wondered if the school where OGM great niece attends had sent a letter home to parents explaining the context for the change of practice and if the letter invited families with any concerns to speak to the school? That would be good practice when changing a policy.

Penstemmon

I never said there were many children suffering from bladder or bowel disorders.

I did not asccuse you of 'saying' the pissy pants comment , I used it as a phrase as I believe that is how you have eluded to children who only want a loo, god forbid in class time. I'll stand by it reading back your posts.

We obviously are not going to agree on this one.

rosequartz her family think that, with the use of a special pass, (I don't know the details of how it is used) my DGN is starting to overcome her anxiety.
Penstemmon I'm not sure that this was done. I also think that this information should be presented to the pupils as part of the liaison meetings that occur at the time of change from Primary to Sec. school, explaining why it is school policy and assuring pupils that passes are to be made available to those who genuinely need them...... or would this blow the situation out of all proportion? I do not have the answers to this tricky problem.....