School toilets.... locked!

I don't believe some children can 'hang on' just as some adults can't. As a teacher you very quickly suss out who is in genuine need and who is a change of scenery seeker.

I smoked at secondary school. When I was in the sixth form I often met up with my fellow smokers to enjoy a mid morning ciggie. Everyone knew when and where we did it. There was an unspoken acceptance that we would use that particular small toilet block and not do it in breaks when younger children might be around. Remember this was the time when the staff room was cloudy with smoke all the time so it was just smokers giving other smokers somewhere to go.

We didn't vandalise the toilets and we didn't smoke anywhere else in the school. Bullying will take place regardless of whether or not the toilets are locked. Locking toilets and making the children ask for a key sounds ok on paper but would you like to have to get permission to leave a room then go to an office which could be in another building to ask for a key so that you could go to the toilet. Imagine an employer bringing in such a rule. All hell would quite rightly break loose. If it's not acceptable for an adult then it's not acceptable for a child/young person.

I remember going to toilet during lesson times at my primary school because in winter we had to go to the cloakroom to put on our hats, coats and gloves, leave the building, walk the whole width of the playground, enter the cold, dark toilet block, find the cubicle where the water in the toilet wasn't frozen (if we were lucky), avoid the huge spider that hid behind the cistern, scratch our bits using the izal toiletpaper, return across the playground, remove coat etc and finally get back to class where if we were lucky the teacher would let us sit near the radiator to thaw out.

I suspect that some children just ask to go to the loo because they are bored whereas some others may genuinely have a "call of nature". What I remember from my childhood was an absolute horror about using the school loos which I visited as rarely as possible, so would arrive home in the afternoon bursting for a pee. Surely they have improved since then.

Can schools actually stop children going to the toilet? It is absolutely ridiculous and I'm sure it is not allowed.

At the school where I do volunteer reading, the children are allowed to go to the toilet provided they ask first - and allowed to get a drink of water. I should imagine that if some children start to do this on a regular basis (I haven't seen this occurring) the teacher would have a word with them. The teachers maintain discipline and good manners but they do this in a very gentle way and it is a very happy school.

I agree with Flickety that, in my experience anyway, if for some reason a person doesn't have access to a toilet, this often creates a strong need to go. I would think rules like this for children could put them off going to school or make them unduly anxious.

Penstemmon

"I do not ever recall asking to leave the class for the toilets as a child. I do not recall my two daughters having a problem at school with needing a pee or with their periods"

Good for you!

I'm b---gg- --d if I can remember or even 'know' what either myself or daughter did when it came to wanting a pee some 50/30 respectively years ago whilst attending school. What a marvellous memory .

POGS schools start at about 8:45 and kids usually have access to loos before or as school starts, break time is about 10:30 with lunch at 12:00-12:30 and the afternoon stating at 1:00/1:30 and ending at 3:30.

Kids are not ever in class for much more than 2 1/2 hours at a time. I would have thought that by 9 that is a reasonable gap from one pee to another!

Re periods ..if a young girl/woman is having a bleed that needs her to change her sanitary protection more often than every two and a half to three hours I would think she has a problem. I do not ever recall asking to leave a class for the toilets as a child. I do not recall my two daughters having a problem at school with needing to pee or with periods.
The youngest got into trouble for not hanging up her coat at primary school until I pointed out she could not reach the peg..she was diddy!

I totally agree with you Penstemmon. Some kids, especially those in secondary schools, organise themselves to meet others from other classes in the toilets during lesson time to have a quick smoke etc or they wish to disrupt the lesson as much as they can. If teachers allow any child who asks out of the room to go to the toilet mayhem can follow. Teachers usually know who the genuine ones are but to allow all and sundry out just because they ask to go to the toilet is asking for trouble.

POGS you don't have to be incontinent to get information from ERIC. It's about getting access to a toilet so that she doesn't suffer bladder and bowel damage from holding on that could lead to incontinence. They visit schools and might be able to make suggestions on improving the situation

I agree with your comment about toilets being a basic necessity. They are. After all 100% of the population is forced to go to the loo several times a day in order to keep our bodies healthy!

ROSEQUARTZ it's not good for children to hold on - or anyone come to that - because their bladder and bowel are developing. You can 'train' your bladder and bowel up to a point but there are times when needs must. Some children - and adults - limit their fluid intake which is certainly not recommended. Also urgency has been shown to affect concentration - not good in school and certainly not good for drivers by the way! Also girls don't control over their periods!

Access to toilets reduces NHS costs - something that is rarely considered!

Rose

They have no choice but to hold it.

Hells bells I'm an adult but I have to use a loo if I'm out and about, I admire your pelvic floor muscles. I wouldn't want to be told if I was busting I had to wait.

What about Oldgreymares point that a sec mod school has locked Loo's. Don't you think a poor kid having her period should be able to access a loo.

It must be me but I see going to the toilet as a basic necessity and whether it's children in schools, patients in hospital, elderly in a home when you need to go you should not be told to hold it.

Gracious me! if you do not discourage children from going to the loo during lesson time there would be kids who go frequently just to avoid working & kids frequently in and out of classrooms disrupts the lessons for other children. Obviously very young children should have free access to toilets but by 6+ most children have good control over their bladders /bowels.

The vast majority of children manage perfectly well. Most schools would respond helpfully to genuine medical needs, either permanent or temporary.

I get really fed up with all the negativity towards schools and teachers as though they simply want to make life hard for kids and families!

Do we know that the closing of the toilets at this school is the only thing being done to reduce incidents of bullying? Maybe this strategy is part of a bigger programme?

Pogs....I talked it through with the children to make sure they understood. We spent a few minutes talking about how important it was to be in the classroom during lessons and why they should go to the toilet during breaks but sometimes, just like grown ups, they still need to go at awkward moments. They're children not automatons.

My DS2 had bowel surgery, followed by a temporary colostomy when he was 2. He became quite squeamish about bodily functions and even when he was at secondary school, he would jump on his bike and come home to go to the loo - even though he had lunch at school. He didn't like the condition of the school toilets. Now middle-aged, he hasn't changed much.

Soutra

I really don't understand some of these posts.

Unless a child has a problem with incontinence then I think that he/she, at least past the age of 5 or 6, should be able to hold on for a reasonable length of time so that they do not have to 'dash out' in the middle of lessons.
As for the passing a motion, I was always encouraged by DM to try to do one every morning before going out to school. It becomes a routine in the end and at least a parent knows if a child is 'regular'. If there is a problem with diarrhoea then should that child be in school that day?

If, however, the child does have problems then I am sure the school would be sympathetic if the parent goes in for a chat about it.

Some children don't like using the loo when away from the home and can tend to 'bottle it up'. I know that one primary school we went to look at for DD had outside toilets, not very nice at all, and she adamantly refused to go to that school at the age of 6.

golden girl

Oh dear she doesn't have continence issues. Oldgreymare and myself are concerned about our children being refused the opportunity to go the loo.

Vampire.

I actually like that and I will offer that as a trial for the school, headmistress might just ignore me but there you go.

I certainly think 8/9 year olds would understand the meaning of the words.

There is an organisation called ERIC - I can't remember what it stands for - and while it is mainly concerned with child in continence and bed wetting it also is involved with schools. Might be worth taking a look?
www.eric.org.uk

An 8 year old can't be expected to always go at set times. I had a poster up that said:

Before you ask me if you can go to the toilet ask yourself:

Am I sure I'm desperate and not just fancying a change of scenery?
Can I wait until the important input section of the lesson is over?

If you then decide you definitely need to go to the loo just ask? If you're really desperate and I'm busy with someone else just go and ask a friend to tell me you've left the room.

I never had a child abuse this. In fact I think my class went less in lesson times than most other classes lol.

POGS. There is, or certainly was when I was a primary school governor, a certain procedure to follow.
Basically speak to the child's teacher, then Head of Year if there was one, then Head, then write to school Governors, and then the LEA.

So even if you wrote to the LEA, and say the school Governors were not aware, the problem would first be sent back to them to try and sort.

I think that in your case, your DD, with other parents if they are willing, would be best off writing to the Chair of School Governors, and see what he or she says.
If there are a number of parents involved, the issue will not be quite as easily brushed away.

When I first went back to teaching 27(!) years ago I did a fortnight's supply at a local comprehensive that had a very free and easy reputation, no uniform, kids used staff first names etc but the staff loo was kept locked and you had to get the key from the tea lady in the staff room. Did that, but found loos were actually unlocked when I got there however I was careful to lock up after I had finished. Enjoying a coffee shortly afterwards I saw a woman teacher come into the staff room looking very dishevelled complaining loudly that she had had to climb out of the (first floor) window and jump down on to the grass because " some blankety blank idiot had locked her in the staff Ladies".
Oops . I have never owned up to that up until now!

Quite often when you know you cannot to go to the loo you keep getting the urge to go.

When I was a child we went on a journey in Malaya where we were not allowed to stop between two towns over an hour apart because of the terrorist danger. My parents made my sisters and I go to the loo just before we left the first town. 15 minutes into the journey we all started wanting to go to the loo. When we reached our destination we were all desperate and disappeared into the loos. The actual amount of urine we produced was very little. The fear of needing to go was parent of the need.

I run a huge community choirs project and the children involved are always wanting the loo during rehearsals - it seems to be infectious - one goes and then they all have to trail off! The adults keep rolling their eyes in exasperation! One girl even wandered off for a wee in the middle of the concert with 300 singers and an audience of over 1000! - she just strolled off in front of the soloist!

I do now encourage them to wee before they sing; but it does not always happen. It is irritating, but we cannot know whether or how much they really want to go and cannot possibly forbid it.

that was to POGS btw

I think children can be a little bit funny about only wanting to use the home toilet. I would ask her why she doesn't go at break times. Don't push it though, of course.

I think you will be taken more seriously if you do put your name to your letter. I would write a letter rather than an email. You could get someone to help you compose it or read it through if you are concerned that it might sound antagonistic.
Then if you get no response you could follow it up with an e mail cc'd to governors/ head/ education director, as appropriate. Good luck x

I think I am definitely going to tackle this with my daughter again.

It's one thing to say go to the governors but they are showing signs of keeping her happy, she is a very dominating person.

I dread awaiting the possible response but here goes. Would anybody think it cowardly to report the school to the authorities, ANONYMOUSLY?

in the v large upper school that I taught in we had a (female) toilet attendant for the main toilets, who had a key to both male and female toilets. Students had to have a pass, given by the teacher, to visit during lesson time. It worked well and was worth he extra personnel costs.

In other buildings smaller toilets were 'policed' (keys held) by individual departments.

I was lucky to have a personal WC in my collection of rooms, if there was an issue with a particular student I made that available. x