Incredible shananigans to get kids in chosen schools?

It is all about time granjura - sending them to a school with the aim of influencing the improvement of that school would subject them to a poor educational experience for as long as it took to turn the school around - they might have left by then!

We all just want the best for our own children at the time, whilst also maybe adhering to the principle that all schools should be good, and feeling very sorry for those who are stuck in poor schools.

I would not "sacrifice" my children to a principle - they only get one crack at it.

My thoughts exactly, Luckygirl.

I would not "sacrifice" my children to a principle - they only get one crack at it

I could not agree more. As a Secondary teacher since 1970 I was firmly of the opinion that if all the articulate and motivated parents left the State system, it would rapidly go down the pan.
After 2 weeks "supply" in a local secondary school which was a total shock to the system, no discipline, easy osey "first name" staff, no textbooks, just death by worksheet, shambles in the classrooms and kids who ran riot, I decided I could swallow some principles for the sake of my children's education.
It worked, too.

I actually find the notion that parents are "sacrificing" their children if they are not prepared to do all sorts of dishonest things to get them into a specific school rather insulting. What sort of an example does it set a child that his/her parents are willing to lie through their teeth, not to protect them from danger, but to get them into the "best" school (however that is defined).

My grandson has lived with me since birth and has attended pre-nursery, nursery, reception and all through years 1-4 at the same local school. The natural progression along with all of his year at school was to the local Middle school. However he wasn't given a place there, the only child out of his year, but was allocated a school near to where his dad (legal guardian) lives 5 miles away. He was desperately upset at being segregated from his school friends.
The Local Authority wouldn't concede even though I pointed out that if his Dad lived 50 miles away would my grandson be expected to travel that far each day.
I sent a copy of his birth certificate with my address on, a hospital appointment letter and other documents, and had to write an appeal letter and attend an interview before the LA relented.
My grandson was so excited at the news that he burst in to tears and hugged me. I feel so sorry for children who are not able to continue their education alongside their school friends.

By "sacrificing" my children for my principles I meant sending them to a substandard (being kind) state secondary school, believe me I never fiddled my applications, bent the rules or got up to anything underhand.
I just went back to work full time so that we could pay the fees at a very good day school!
You may not approve of that, but so be it.

ever wondered what happened next . to the children who went to those (being kind) substandard state secondary schools though?

Why?

Obviously not, granjura. They did not matter.

"Right DJ and like Mchael Gove said "I want very school to be better than average" hmm, be realistic. "

This government now wants every child to pass maths and English at grade A* -C or repeat the exam until s/he does.
They also want schools to be penalised if all students do not obtain these grades.

If the brighter pupils are removed from those substandard state schools, they will be fined and end up even more substandard if that is possible.
But of course you do not care about them.

There's always the alternative ot home schooling, of course. If you don't want your child going to an unsuitable (for whatever reason) school.

Out of order.

In the spirit of not ganging up on other members, would you two find it possible NOT to pick on me on this issue?

What would you like me to say? That I still agonise over the fact that I was not really in a position to turn around a failing school during a 2 week supply stint 29 years ago?
Well actually, I believe in taking responsibility for my own family -at that time 3 DDs and a husband who might never have been able to work again,
So what did I do?
I got on my metaphorical bike and did what I had to do and if we chose to educate our children privately, that is our business and ours alone.
So don't accuse me of not caring in that sanctimonious way.
I was a da*n good conscientious and successful teacher in a variety of STATEyes, shock horrror statecomprehensives for the next 24 years workng my butt off for kids of all levels of ability, helping them to get the GCSE's and A levels which got them to university and on to good careers. So please don't get all sanctimonious and imply other kids didn't matter to me.

Stick to the argument, whatever it is as it seems to have moved on from a criticism of a English parents' aspirations for their children. Not Scottish, or Welsh, or Northern Irish, as the systems are not identical across the UK.

Not in my case Ana DH was just out of hospital and I needed a full time job.
But I take your point about the principle- and know of several cases where it has been an ideal solution. Our Chinese niece was home schooled in Singapore up to the age of 9.

My post wasn't aimed at you, Alea.

But of course you do not care about them

And your evidence for this DJ is precisely ......?

Thanks ana I didn't really think it was unlike comments from some other directions
<sigh>

Some people don't seem to realise how ridiculous their sweeping generalisations/assumptions are, and obviously don't care that they might actually offend or hurt others.

Unfortunately I think some people know only too well how to go for the jugular but sadly personal accusations of "not caring" or that "they didn't matter" seem to serve as a substitute for discussion.
It is too easy to pass negative judgements on nationalities or groups from "outside" or without knowing the full facts whether in issues of health, education, behaviour.
One person's opinion is still only an opinion and not necessarily handed down from the mountain.

Alea I didn't think we were talking about private schooling. I thought we were talking about parents who dishonestly got their children into "good" state schools.

Nevertheless, when you describe parents as "sacrificing" their children - no matter what you intended that to mean - I think that is a very personal and unpleasant thing to say about other parents' choices so I'm not quite sure why you are so offended about the responses your comments elicited.

I didn't think the issue was about private schooling either! But if you look back, the phrase

I would not "sacrifice" my children to a principle - they only get one crack at it
Was written by Luckygirl, although I agree in the sense that I said that until I had children I was teaching's greatest proponent of the state system. However, faced with a choice between a problem school closest to home and a better one (judged by whatever criteria, in my case visiting the school , talking to the Head, observing the ethos of the school bearing in mind the physical and educational needs of my own children and whether I was seeing happy stimulated kids) 10 minutes drive away, I defend my choice of the latter.
To extrapolate from that that I don't care or that I think other kids don't "matter" was frankly outrageous.

dj "If the brighter pupils are removed from those substandard state schools, they will be fined and end up even more substandard if that is possible.
But of course you do not care about them."

Firstly, it is not only 'brighter pupils' who are educated outside the state system.

Secondly, if all those who were educated privately were in the state system, it would be even more stretched than it is now.

Thirdly, the presence of these erstwhile privately educated pupils in the system would not magically help the children who don't attain C grades and above to get a higher grade and the schools would still be subject to the government's mad policies.

I will not comment on your nasty personal attack on alea other than that I think it is undeserved and outside GN guidelines.

I'm shocked by the level of unpleasantness being directed at Alea by Dj and Granjura.

Luckygirl puts it simply in her post when she says she wouldn't 'sacrifice' her children because 'they only get one crack at it'. I posted earlier that I feel my oldest daughter missed out on the stability provided to her younger sisters because they didn't attend a deprived, inner city primary school. I don't need to detail the difference between deprived inner city and ordinary smallish town schools, most posters will understand it.

I wonder what our adult children make of this discussion. I know my three recognise we did our best for them and in turn, want to do their best for their own children. Yes, of course all schools should be as good as the best. They aren't though and I'm no longer the idealistic 25 year old I was when I sent my much loved 6 year old to a deprived inner city school. I wouldn't do it again if I had the choice.

alea, .

Some people are just bitter and twisted naturally grumpy full on
negative. About pretty much everything.

Your arguments seem perfectly reasonable to me and never expressed in an unpleasant way.

I did the same Iam because as parents we wanted our children to experience life and education with children from all backgrounds. Not the fault of the children but quite frankly the school was rubbish and my children paid the price in their different ways. They paid for the ideals of two very fortunate, grammar school educated parents. I wouldn't do it again either, because now I live in the real world

My contribution as someone still working with school as an advisor (2 LAs &a diocesan education dept) is that parents are ill informed if they think church schools better than community etc. I have seen excellent and dire in similar numbers in both. I personally would not choose,even if I had the choice, to send my kids to a private school. I firmly believe that to improve society as a whole the fewer divisive structures the better. I sent my girls to an unpopular school. They are fine!! Even outstanding schools that serve low socially economic areas do not attract many local middle class parents. We are a class ridden society. I currently work with a church school in a bit of bother. It was the school middle class families chose over the school where I was HT (rated outstanding) because the church school attracted a "nicer type of child" .