Yesterday was the awful school appeal day!

I'm so sorry to hear about the way the panel treated you, Gillybob. I used to sit on admission appeals panels and I can honestly say that we never behaved that way to any appellants, even the ones we knew were 'trying it on' which you and DiL, very clearly, are not. I realise that the reasons for the children's move are confidential, but have you been able to explain these in writing so that they have the full picture, perhaps with supporting evidence?

Thank you for your kind words anno. We were able to produce documentation to "prove" that the reasons for the move were totally legitimate but the only comment made in connection with this was from the LEA and the school who asked "why here?"

Have drawn a complete blank with school transport daphnedill I even downloaded information from the government website plus our own local council website. They will not budge. The children currently live just under 5 miles from the only school with places (the one they are in) in September unless eldest DGD gets into a feeder she will live over 7 miles from her secondary school and the thought of her travelling on 2-3 buses on her own terrifies me. She is a tiny little girl (literally).

To show how crazy they were they asked why my son could not take them and pick them up from the existing school. I said he worked full time and drives a works 2 seat van and I was sure it was illegal to carry passengers in the back of a van. They then suggested that he could make three separate there and back trips. I then said that I thought it was illegal to leave young children alone....... this is the mentality of the people we were dealing with.

Lordy..they all sound a bit simple to me gillybob I can clearly see why you are justifiably angry! There is little common sense or any thought in these questions!

What won't they budge about what, gilly?

They MUST provide transport - that really is the law.

Your GDG does not have to travel on three buses in September. If there isn't a direct school bus, the local authority must provide a taxi. My son was 8 years old when he travelled to school by taxi. There was no problem at all with that. The taxi driver picked him up from home and delivered him to the school receptionist every morning. He collected him after school and then took him to the child minder.

I think you're confusing certain issues. Transport arrangements are not grounds for appeal, but the LA must provide it.

PS. It is not illegal to leave children alone, although, it's irresponsible to suggest it.

@anno

When I went to appeal, I had a stronger case than gilly (again, I'm not going into reasons), but I had evidence of the reason I had to move. It made no difference. As far as the panel was concerned, the school was full and I could not prove that my child needed to go to the school, because the LA had the duty to overcome the barrier of transport.

PS. I complained to the Local Government Ombudsman about the conduct of the appeal, because there were procedural errors, and I was granted a new appeal. In the end, it wasn't needed, because a child left the school and a place was found for my son.

One of the other recommendations was that the chairperson (the bitch) should be retrained and should not act as chairperson without the retraining. I must admit I got a little satisfaction from that.

Anyway, it's not over yet. You might found you've won.

Thank you daphnedill . I should have clarified that the school transport people do not accept the government regulations. They have said that their duty is only to provide transport to children from underprivileged backgrounds ( ie in receipt of free school meals) and looked after children. I have provided them with evidence to the contrary but don't know where to turn next . I appreciate that it's not over until we get the official letter of refusal but I have very little hope of success .

gillybob
(But still hoping you will be confounded by a positive response.)

@gillybob

They DO have a statutory responsibility. Contact the Local Government Ombudsman without delay.

1.2 Provision of travel arrangements
13. Sections 508B and 508C of the Act make provision for local authorities to ensure that suitable travel arrangements are made, where necessary, to facilitate a child’s attendance at school.
14. These provisions apply to home6 to school travel arrangements, and vice versa7. They do not relate to travel between educational institutions during the school day8.
15. Parents are responsible for ensuring that their children attend school regularly. However, section 444(3B) of the Act provides that a parent will have a defence in law against a prosecution by a local authority for their child’s non-attendance at school where the local authority has a duty to make travel arrangements in relation to the child under section 508B and has failed to discharge that duty.
1.3 Provision of travel arrangements: Eligible children
16. Section 508B of the Act deals with the duty on local authorities to make such travel arrangements as they consider necessary to facilitate attendance at school for eligible children. Schedule 35B of the Act defines eligible children – those categories of children of compulsory school age (5-16) in an authority’s area for whom free travel arrangements will be required local authorities are required to:
Statutory walking distances eligibility
• provide free transport for all pupils of compulsory school age (5-16) if their nearest suitable school9 is:
• beyond 2 miles (if below the age of 8); or
• beyond 3 miles (if aged between 8 and 16)

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/445407/Home_to_School_Travel_and_Transport_Guidance.pdf

The transport issue won't make any difference to the availability of a place, but it should make your lives a bit easier.

There are thousands of children being bussed and taxied to school every day. It costs a fortune, but tough! LAs should lobby the government to make it easier to provide local places.

The important thing is that the school is the nearest with places.

I found the LGO very approachable, so please contact them. The LA is breaking the law.

This is a link to the LGO's factsheet about school transport...

www.lgo.org.uk/make-a-complaint/fact-sheets/education/school-transport

I don't know what else to say daphnedill except thank you so much for sending such comprehensive information. At least life will be a lot easier all around if we knew the children were going to get backwards and forwards to their existing school without the upset and trauma it is causing at the moment.

I will get back on the case again tomorrow .

grannyactivist you will knock me down with a feather if there is a positive outcome from this. But as the saying goes "it ain't over 'til the fat lady sings"

and this fat lady will be yodeling from the rooftops

Sincere apologies for boring everyone to tears over this but I feel better for having "spoken" to you lovely people.

Thank you for being there.
to you all. X

No problem, gilly. I remember only too well the physical sickness I felt from the stress of it all - and it was over 10 years ago.

gillybob so sorry about the awful experience you and your DD had I do hope you find some way that your GCs can get to a decent school easily. It is appalling that professional people should behave so badly. The head in particular should be able to distance herself and see the situation from a parent's viewpoint even if she doesn't agree with it. I think you should write to your local councillor outlining your complaints and making some positive suggestions for the way you would like to see appeals carried out in the future, it may prevent someone else from experiencing a similar ordeal. Good luck

Aw gillybob I remember when I was going through it myself and the stress I felt. I prepared as if I was going on trial; I rehearsed my speech about the untold harm that would befall my child if she didn't get into the nearest school as if I was auditioning for the RSC. I had facts and figures, a doctor's letter, a letter from my daughter's previous school - and really pleaded my case. Then I walked out of the building and my knees turned to jelly so I had to sit on a nearby wall while I cried my eyes out!!

It's a horrible process, but there will be hearts beating behind those cold exteriors I'm sure. We're waiting with you.

Letters arrived yesterday afternoon, confirming what we already knew. No places for any of the three children. DDiL on a late shift so didn't find out until late last night.

Although deep down I already knew their minds were made up long before we attended the appeal and wasted 4 hours. It still hurts to see it in writing.

All letters read almost the same with the names changed in the appropriate places (at least the letters gave them names, which is more than the LEA, the headteacher (apparently she does not teach, so I stand corrected) or the panel did during the appeal).

One mention about the time it took to get to appeal reads....... "whilst we accept that the length of time taken to reach appeal was longer than normal, this has no bearing on the decision made".

Not sure what we can do now? Perhaps go down the school transport route again.

Thank you all again for your kind comments and suggestions.

gillybob sorry to hear that.

I have pmd you

Have been told by admissions that DGD (year 6) has no chance getting in next year unless she makes it into a feeder.
I would apply anyway

You should also sound out local opinion about the rank order of the choices for secondary
I don't know if it is still the case, but we used to live in a borough which had a choice of 12 secondary schools, plus a C of E secondary school just across the border.
We were advised, when applying, to only put one choice down. If a second choice is made then that child is only considered after places are allocated to those who only make one choice.

However, we moved before DC started to an area where there was no choice at all.

It really is horrible to see the decision in writing and I sympathise.

Is the school the children currently attend the nearest one with places and is it more than three miles from their current home?

If yes to both, they are eligible for school transport and the LA has a statutory duty to provide it, whatever somebody on the end of a phone has told you.

Your next step should be to apply formally for transport. You can usually download the form from the council's website. You might need to include a covering letter explaining that you have been turned down by nearer schools. The unsuccessful appeal will strengthen your case.

If the LA refuses to provide transport, you must then appeal and then refer to the LGO. The sooner you start the process, the better.

Your DDiL must also decide quickly what to do about the eldest child's secondary education. If there is no realistic chance of a place in the preferred secondary school, you have two options:

a) Apply anyway and keep your fingers crossed, but have a second choice which would be acceptable. Bear in mind that if you don't put the second choice first, it might also be full with those from the top of the list and your grandchild runs the risk of being allocated another school.

b) Put the second choice at the top of the list and be almost guaranteed a place.

PS. You're right about the decision being made before the appeal. The only thing that matters in appeals is the law. The school had a strong case, because it was full. Your only case would have been an argument that the school would have provided something no other school could. The appeal would not have taken into account any transport difficulties or any other emotional appeal. The only way a transport problem can succeed is if the child is disabled (and, therefore, can't walk or travel long distances) or if the school is hours away from the home, for example in a very rural area, in which case it becomes unreasonable for the child to travel.

There was almost nothing you could have done, so don't feel badly about it. Very few appeals succeed. You might find a visit to the CAB helpful.

gilly, I am upset for you, it is so sad when we feel we are unable to resolve the situation.

Did you consider asking your local councillor to accompany you, gillybob? When I was a member of the local authority dealing with education, I attended many appeals with constituents and never lost one. You need the councillor at the relevant level.

@Jalima

The current advice is precisely the opposite.

First choices are considered first. If the school fills up with first choices, no other applications will be considered.

From a parent's point of view, if the first choice fills up with children higher up the admissions criteria, the second choice will then be considered. If that one is already full up with first choices, the third will be considered and so on.

If a parent only gives one choice and that school fills up with children higher up the admissions criteria list, the child will then be allocated any school where there are places. In today's climate, that is likely to be an unpopular school and could be miles from home. The parent has no control at all.

I don't see how a local councillor could help with the current system. There is a strict format for appeals and the only thing that matters is the law. The advantage to having a councillor or a lawyer is that they are likely to know the law better. The school was full and that was it.

Daphnedil - Oh, hope I have not given the wrong advice! In fact, this was a long time ago and the advice was from a couple of other parents whose daughters had been successful in being allocated places at the schools of their choice.

It does not seem fair that a child who lives near to a secondary school would be refused a place there because she was not in the 'right feeder primary school' - because it was full and she failed to gain a place on appeal.

As long as said councillor is not chairman of the education committee Shinyredcar - in which case they could be equally nasty.

We have already applied to the secondary school minutes away from where she lives and I spoke at length to the admissions secretary at the school who tells me they have 180 places for year 7's . They tend to get 160-170 (give or take) children from feeders and the remaining places go to a) siblings b) looked after children and then finally c) children living closest to the school. She said that since 2013 they have never reached the c) category .

Have been warned that the "choices" are not rank order ie, first choice, second choice, third choice. They are three alternatives and the school offered will be the one with most spare capacity regardless of where it is situated.

Definitely going to go down the school transport route next I think which will make things a little easier although DGS will probably have to leave his maths group and his football practice which is sad. The existing school does not offer any after school clubs (across the board) that they could all attend on the same day which means they can't go to any as distance between home and school is too long.

I can't help feeling that I have let the children down in a big way and that I could have/should have done a lot more.

Anyway the head will have a big smile on her face now. Pity she couldn't crack a smile at the appeal.