Yesterday was the awful school appeal day!

daphnedill I do know about school appeals. I also know that my local authority has adopted the UN Convention on Children's Rights and allows children to be present and to speak at appeals although they can be asked to leave if there is something to be discussed that might upset them. Ireland has a children's ombudsman and part of that job is to ensure that the Convention is applied to all education matters including appeals
www.oco.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/AdviceoftheOmbudsmanforChildrenontheGeneralSchemeoftheEducationBill.pdf
Everyone involved in anything to do with children in the UK should be aware of the Convention. The fact that you are not reveals a certain attitude towards children that needs to change. I have said it will not change the appeal decision, but this is about promoting better practice.
I suggest you follow the links and read the UN Convention.

path20: "If your grandchild is refused a place at the secondary school of choice and you fit in the schools admission criteria and you find out that places have been given to others as in ' The children travel miles from where they live in the next town to attend and will be guaranteed a place in the school my DGC can see from their window.' then if this is proved at an appeal you will win."

Surely that doesn't apply for a mid-year admission, only at the original admissions time. It certainly didn't count in my son's case. Nearly every child in the school lived further away than we did. Not only that, but he was on the school's SEN register at the time for EBD. He was an exceptionally gifted mathematician, but had literacy problems. As a result, he became frustrated, had temper tantrums and found it difficult to make friends. The school I could see from my bedroom window was the county lead school in a gifed primary maths programme, but all of this counted for nothing.

Fair enough, trisher. I wish people would think about the human rights of the other children in the school and the teachers, who have to teach these huge classes. Sorry, but I think it gives human rights a bad name.

The LA is not denying the children an education, unlike so many children (especially girls) in the world.

Hahaha trisher! Just read your suggestion that I don't care about children, which I find grossly insulting, especially considering ny background.

PS. Why on earth should I need to be aware of the Irish Ombudsman for Children? The Local Government Ombudsman covers school appeals in the UK and, at one stage, I almost knew their publications by heart.

I attended 2 school appeals in June for my middle daughters little girl we were up against the wretched "infant class size prejudice" argument it is virtually impossible to win these types of appeal and despite strong medical evidence and compelling arguments put by my SIL who came with me and by me as their official Rep we lost both appeals! I can truely say the experience was one of the most gruelling. The school will do all they can to prevent you winning and the whole appeal procedure is like civil court proceedings (I have to attend civil courts with clients so I know what I am talking about!) it was horribly adversarial and all the while we were actually talking about the school for an adorable little 4 year old! Although you wouldn't have thought so from the attitude of the school head or chair of Governers!
My complete sympathy to anyone who ever has to attend any it these hideous "trials" and as the OP states it is often a done deal before the hearing is ever listed!

The 30 class size for Infant (KS1) aged children was hard won..not for teachers but for the little children. Legally there only has to be one qualified teacher per 30 kids...no teaching assistants or nursery assistants.

I do understand how distressing it is when a child does not get a place at a local school and for those who have to move home & school the situation is exceptionally difficult. I am not sure what the solution is as each situation will be different. Some schools could accommodate (physically) extra children in a class room but some schools even fitting in another place for a child to sit is a real issue. And funding for schools is based on a census (just happened) and only if the roll rose or fell by 10% would the school receive / lose the per capita funding. This is why Headteachers and Chairs are often unwilling to admit over numbers..the resources have to come from somewhere and they are keen to protect the interests of the children already on roll. Having said that, there is no excuse for lack of empathy and courtesy towards the appellant.

Daphnedili...I did say on my post that this only applied in September not mid year. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

OK jenpax attendance at a meeting is voluntary and depends on the age and personality of the child. No one would force a child to attend but there are many children particularly by secondary age who are able to say what they want and they should be given the opportunity and the right to do so,
daphnedill I didn't say you don't care for children I said you revealed a certain attitude. Many people regard children as small and in need of supervision, although they may at times need help many of them have real opinions and views about what sort of an education they want, and if you do care for them surely you would want them to be able to speak about this. I posted the Irish Ombudsman site because it gave an excellent account of how children's rights can be brought in to education.
It isn't about necessarily changing appeal decisions, although this can happen, it is about giving children a voice in every aspect of their lives including their education.

I can honestly say we appeal panels do understand how gruelling it is for parents sat on the other side of the table. We do our best to put parents at their ease.My daughter appealed for her daughter to attend the local church school which was two minutes from home.She told me the school representatives were horrible and made her so upset. If I knew then what I know now I would have told her not to bother. I sit on appeals for that particular school and their attitude has not changed.They have no sympathy whatsoever for the parents who are appealing.They seem as hard as nails....and this is a church school.

I don't think I agree with the child being involved in the appeals procedure.
The parents or carers may wish to appeal for a place nearer to their home or for other reasons but, until a decision is made, I think it would put unnecessary stress on a child to be involved at all, or even to be told.

If a place at the desired school is granted, then that would be the time to tell them in the best way possible that they would be changing schools.
I applied for a change of schools to one further away from home for DC 1 and 2 because we were not happy with the school nearby; however, I told them during the summer holidays that they would be changing schools and answered any queries or apprehension they may have had.
Had I told them what we were doing they could have become anxious, disappointed if the application was turned down and there was no need for them to be placed under that stress at a young age.

Icouldn't agree more, Jalima, I know my GDs, particularly one of them, would absolutely hate to be involved in any sort of appeal process.

Is it really fair to put children, even teenagers, through that just because someone has insisted it's their 'human right' to speak up in front of a group of hostile strangers?

It is the child's choice.
Apologies gillybob I didn't intend to hi-jack your thread. It is almost 20years since I asked for this in my authority. I just assumed most people believed in the Rights of the Child.

Just because we may believe in the Rights of the Child (and in having a Children's Commissioner) does not mean that primary school children should be directly involved in an appeals procedure which was hostile enough to reduce even their mother to tears.

Of course, now we have said that we are not sure that small children should be directly involved in this type of potentially traumatic appeal, it may be assumed that we do not believe in their rights.
[sigh]

The appeal does not need to be traumatic and perhaps the presence of a child will prevent it being such. Also the child does not HAVE to be there but there are many children who are aware of what is happening and who want to voice their own opinions, why should they be prevented from doing this? I will say again it is about having the choice. If the parents and the child don't want it to happen it won't. If the school doesn't want it to happen that is a different thing, the school will not be able to stop the child speaking. Why would you want to do this if the child wants to speak?

No apology needed trisher I am just glad to read so many different points of view.

I agree that the children are not being denied an education daphnedill but surely you can accept that having to travel so far to school is detrimental especially given that there are 3 schools within a stones throw of home and another around a mile away.

Another thing I can't get my head around is if there are 31 children in a year 1 group (they have broken the class size rules) then over the school holidays 2 of the children left roll for whatever reason and there were 29 in September . The Ht said she couldn't take one more child as there is not enough physical space in the classroom (same size as year one classroom it appears but they would not release that information when I asked for it and gave it to me reluctantly at the hearing) . I said that she was expecting to have 32 in the classroom and if all year 1's had transferred to year 2 there would have been. She said that the 2 "extra" were looked after children that she was obliged to take and for whom there was a pupil premium attached. My argument is, do looked after children not use classroom space? They mustn't. Is it really all about getting extra money . Yes I think it is.

What size are the classes the children are going to?

In their current school I have no idea Stansgran I have had no reason to measure them. In the paperwork I was handed at the appeal ( despite requesting it several times previously) it states that the classrooms are all 62m2 . I did not have chance to know how this measures up against other schools as we did not get the information until it was too late to be of any use .

It all sounds very dodgy gillybob. I would ask to be updated on the waiting list and to keep asking about numbers. My experience of "looked after' children is that they are sometimes in schools for very short periods and move on, depending what stage of the care system they are in. Those 2 children could be in short term foster care and awaiting adoption or in other situations that mean they will not be there long term.

gilybob found a thread about classroom size on mumsnet- (seems to be a hot topic on there) someone had posted
2 year olds: 2.5 m2 per child. - children aged 3 to 5 years: 2.3 m2 per child ...2.61 square metres is required for each pupil under nine and 2.89 sq m for each pupil from nine to 11.

I'll leave you to do the maths. No idea if this is correct.

Thank you for that trisher very interesting but we should have had that information weeks ago. It is of no use now that the appeal is done and finished with. Personally I think it was deliberately withheld . Yes I agree about the looked after children who may move around the care system . But they are still children and they still take up room . They do however ( which seems to be very important to HT) attract pupil premium which maybe makes up for the lack of space .

In some ways I think you are probably best out of that school gillybob I have met some dreadful HTs in my time and this one sounds as if she is one of them. You have to wonder if she treated you with such a lack of concern how on earth she manages to take care of small children. Of course she probably doesn't, she is probably a head who avoids children as much as possible

My DD became disabled upon the birth of her child and her husband was forced to give up work to became a carer for both of them. When it was time for DD to apply to schools, she put down her local one which is 500 yards from her house and mine because her husband wants to return to work. My daughter is more able than she was but her condition means that at anytime she may dislocate a joint or faint. In those circumstances I would need to collect my DGD with a very large possibility it would be at very short notice. DD had all the medical papers to prove her condition. Did it make an ounce of difference? Not at all, her child was sent to a school which is miles away and without disabled parking. DD decided not to go through the appeals process because she had heard it was so stressful and stress makes her condition worse and, reading OP's account, I'm glad she didn't.

Trisher I didn't make any comment about attending meetings?? Were you confusing my post with another?

Spent over an hour this morning (when I was supposed to be working ) ringing around various departments and have emailed our MP (not to complain about the outcome, but about the appeals process itself). I rang several secondary schools to enquire about their admissions policies and they all seem very similar . The only 2 she would be virtually guaranteed a place are over 5 miles away and neither have direct bus routes. Added to this they both have terrible Ofsted reports. I have been advised that we should revise our application for secondary school and add at least one other school but I have conflicting advice that says they will choose the one that has the most spare places not the one closest to home. The lady at admissions said "if you are unsuccessful you could always go to appeal" Who is she kidding? This whole thing has been a nightmare that DDiL and I are very unlikely to repeat. I pity other parents and grandparents who have to go through this.