Foreign languages in UK schools - really poor offer and take up - WHY?

What do you mean, Callistemon? An elementary/secondary modern education for the masses? Meanwhile, a handful learn foreign languages and even Latin and Greek?

Of course the league tables have been a factor. Foreign languages are, on average, half a grade below residual levels for all other subjects. In other words, if ten pupils achieve Bs on average in all their other subjects except languages, they will achieve an average of half a grade lower in languages.

Low achieving schools move heaven and earth to make sure their pupils achieve good grades in English, Maths and Science, sometimes giving them extra curriculum time to the expense of languages.

Primary schools tick a few boxes to keep Ofsted and governors happy, but in reality the general standard of language teaching is poor and doesn't prepare pupils for secondary school. (There are exceptions, of course.) It's been a waste of time. It shouldn't ever have been included as an "add on" but needed proper resourcing and financing.

GCSEs are supposed to be equivalent to A2 on the Common European Framework of Reference (CEFR). The recommended teaching time is 400 hours. In reality, secondary schools are trying to teach languages in half the time, in some cases.

maddyone I agree with you that the best foreign language teachers are probably to be found in the independent sector and with good reason. The language laboratories and resources are highly superior in private schools, trips abroad and exchange visits are often undertaken on a regular basis and assistant teachers from abroad are employed for conversation practice. This is why pupils achieve A and A* grades, not because they are any cleverer than others. Also many parents of kids in independent schools also fork out for weekly tuition in languages. It might not be fair, but it's a fact.

Ellianne may I correct some misconceptions regarding MFL teaching today
1) Language labs went out over 20 years ago
2) state schools also employ assistant(e)s who are foreign nationals, often student teachers but not necessarily to give small group or one to one tuition to students
3) exchange visits are easily as frequent and popular in state schools as in the private sector

There may be more pressure in some independent schools but in my experience is a high performing comprehensive, the parental pressure was no less.

No, the bottom line is the removal of languages from the core curriculum and the proliferation of league tables
With reduced numbers in the lower school there are consequently fewer students opting at GCSE and the knock-on effect at A level.
Sizes of language departments have shrunk, with staff being made redundant and a massive loss of morale.
Schools are in competition with one another -state, every bit as much as independent- and that is where League tables do their insidious damage.
You can “cram” more easily for some subjects (and I do not wish to deride the achievement of students in any area) but Heads are short sighted.

I disagree with you, Ellianne. Some of the most complacent MFL teachers are to be found in the independent sector. They don't have to work so hard to motivate their pupils as those in the state sector do. Some of them don't know how to teach because their pupils do the hard work. Some independent schools aren't very good anyway.

PS. Please not the use of "some".

*note (not "not")

Interesting observation growstuff - as a state school teacher I tutored any number of independent school kids to help them improve their GCSE grades!

One of the big advantages which independent schools have is that they tend to have smaller class sizes, which is important in foreign languages.

PS. Parents of pupils in state schools fork out for private tutors too. I know because that's how I earn enough to keep a roof over my head. Pupils at independent schools, who are already in small classes, never make the same progress with a one-to-one tutor as state school pupils make. Unfortunately, some parents think that throwing money at a problem will solve it.

Many pupils at independent schools sit IGCSEs.

www.theguardian.com/education/2019/aug/24/private-schools-igcse-exams-easier-gcse-university-admissions

Mine improve too, but I could recount some horror stories with pupils from some of the most prestigious indies in the country. The reason they're not doing well is because they're lazy.

OK Best to move on from the private versus state sector as there will always be those who choose to differ, (although my godson's public school does have a digital language laboratory as stated in their prospectus).

Let's centre on the kids rather than on the teaching then and so far the best answer is that languages are jolly difficult and that it takes years and years to reach perfection. You simply cannot blag French or German like you can some other subjects.
Today's pupils want instant gratification and maybe easily achievable A grades, so I can understand why these demanding subjects are not as attractive to them.

My 7 year old grandson was learning Spanish and picking it up very quickly, but unfortunately the Teacher was in and out of school ( possibly working at different schools ) in the end the school as far as I know has never replaced him ...sad as we spend 6 months of the year on and off in Spain.

It is a complex problem, partly about society's attitudes to the importance of MFL, partly to do with the terrible shortage of teachers, partly caused by grade inflation caused by native speakers making it harder for non bi-lingual students to gain the top grades they need for university. I also think the content of the new GCSE is very hard and the topics covered are pretty obscure, especially for the less able.
Having said that I am delighted to report that DGD1, in a non-selective state school got a grade 7(A) for French last week. ?

MawB: '2) state schools also employ assistant(e)s who are foreign nationals, often student teachers but not necessarily to give small group or one to one tuition to students
3) exchange visits are easily as frequent and popular in state schools as in the private sector'

I am surprised at your comments here. Even in the 70s/80s/90s - only schools with a large 6th Form employed Asssitant/e/s. I have hosted and mentored so many of them. But recently the funding has just gone, and I do not know of a single state school who employs one currently (was discussed recently with ex colleagues).

Same thing for school exchanges, I've organised so many in my day, including work placements for our 6th Formers- with friends/colleagues in Normandy. But it is just too much hard work, responsibility and cause so many problems with Risk assessments, lack of safety checks possible, funding and funding of supply teachers, etc - and again, I do not know of any of my former schools or others in the area that do that now. Many still go on trips to France- but with a specialist Tour Operator and staying in Hostels, etc.

Bravo Mamie to your GD1 x

All I can say Jura is that we had a Spanish, a German and a French assistant(e) every year. They would come in October and leave when years 11 , 12 and 23 started study leave usually the May half term. . This was still the case when I retired in September 2010
I also led annual German Exchanges and other members of my team led the French and Spanish exchanges.
In addition we had a biennial exchange with a school in India. So don’t be surprised, just admit that your experience is not the only one.

Another important aspect is that, in this country, we are not exposed to foreign languages to the same extent as other countries. When I grew up in Sweden foreign films/documentaries etc were often shown on tv. They were sub-titled and I quickly developed an interest in and curiosity about other languages. It became a bit of a game to cover the sub-titles with my hand and see if I could translate what was being said.

When I go back to Sweden now I am amazed how well the younger generation speaks English. It is partly a necessity but they also regard it as 'cool'. I don't know how young people in this country can find this willingness to learn another language. And, of course, if we can't find competent teachers to deliver it because we don't want to invest in it and we don't really think it matters – well then, language teaching is a lost cause.

I think you've just about nailed it, Greta.

BTW jura my two nearest state comps still have assistants and organise trips and exchanges. They're struggling financially, but the heads of both schools think that languages are important - long may it continue!

Holland, the same Greta.
Sadly you're probably right that language teaching is becoming g a lost cause and fewer people value the skill these days. I used to get very upset and disheartened by this but lately I've just accepted it as one of those areas where things change, not always for the better. C'est la vie, n'est-ce pas?

I think that is spot on Greta. The sad thing is that there is so much good stuff in the European framework for languages, but the investment is no longer there from the UK government.
There is also the Anglophone dominance in film and television. Because I live in France I watch everything on Netflix with French subtitles. There is a sort of unconscious learning going on, which young people across Europe will profit from.
I am still teaching English for the French U3A at 70. I keep trying to retire but.....

Of course Maw, I can only base my comments on my own extensive experience, and colleagues. 2010 was a long time ago...

Many articles in the press on th demise of school exchanges, for all sorts of reasons, but mainly due to risk assessment and the perceived danger to children:

'Duncan Byrne, deputy head at Cheltenham College and a former chairman of the Independent Schools Modern Languages Association, said: ‘There is a fear of legal action being taken against teachers.

‘Instead, schools are now running sanitised trips where they take 30 children to a chateau in France where they lay on the French experience with some croissants.

‘But pupils are not being immersed in the culture and it’s not the same experience as living with a host family.

'We must not let excessive caution deny pupils valuable life and learning experiences. Schools have got to stand up for what they believe in and find a way to overcome this.’

The decline of exchange trips has caused such concern in Parliament that Pat Glass, acting chairman of the Commons Education Select Committee, is to propose an inquiry on the issue.'

This one in on the Mail on Sunday, but there are a lot more out there.

I am still in touch with about 10 of our ex assistant/s- many stayed with us for a few weeks, months or the year, in France and Germany.

My DD1 learnt Japanese in her first year at secondary school. She loved it and was getting quite good at it. Then the teacher left and no replacement. So she started German, and has just come back from a week in Germany. Rumour has it that music lessons will go next!

The reason the Dutch speak English so well is that they are exposed to it on TV from a very early age. They do not dub cartoons etc. Also they start speaking the language at school when they are 8.
At VWO which is the equivalent of A levels they do 7 subjects one of which is English. My DD did the equivalent of A level Maths, Economics, Dutch, French, German, English, Geography and History. They have a much more rounded education than the three subjects they do here.

Your opinion Jura but you are not the only person to have experience in this field.
Growstuff seems to think otherwise too.
I too retain close links with my old school and colleagues and think that your sweeping assertion even in the 70’s/80’s/90’s only schools with a large 6th form employed assistant(e)(s) fails to stand up to scrutiny.
Exactly when did you return to Switzerland I wonder?
Your comments about Exchange visits likewise - not necessarily the case.
And finally, when did I ever take the Mail on Sunday as gospel or even a recognised authority over personal experience ?
Interesting that you are quoting the Head of one of our most prominent independent schools too

The learning of a foreign language should be compulsory from year 1 in the infants school in the UK. My granddaughter started French in year 3 but had done a bit before in an after school club. I lived in Belgium for a year and most people there could get by in 5 or 6 languages. The British have always been lazy where languages are concerned, expecting the rest of the world to speak English. I took GCSEs in French, German, Latin and Ancient Greek and Latin at A level, but the emphasis then in the 1960s was on written rather than oral. It's much better now that conversational French is taught as a priority.