Foreign languages in UK schools - really poor offer and take up - WHY?

The problem here in the NE is trying to find teachers to actually teach the foreign language in primary , which is where it has to start. I can’t remember how many times they have started French lessons in my DGS’s primary only for the teacher to leave and the classes ending. Having said that my grandson didn’t even have a proper class teacher at all last year so having someone who can teach a foreign language is the least of our worries.

Paddyann, I am, your Mrs McGinley and still going strong!

Marydoll- for real? How wonderful

For me it is a great joy to still be in close touch with many of my ex students- some all over the world now, but many still in Leics and other parts of the UK- and to support a few of them through hard times, one way or another. Many from old Tutor groups as that would span a number of years.

Hope you can arrange to get together for a good natter.

Jura, I loved this as much as my pupils. Perfect for teaching parts of the body!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-oG_yYe64I

My head teacher couldn't stop laughing when he saw me dancing around the class with my pupils.
(I was fit in those days).

How lovely Marydoll- good teachers make learning effortless and that’s how I learned English in infants class!

Pantglas, Linguists don't all agree that starting language learning young in schools is the best way. For a start, bilingual children often have quite a significant delay in literacy in both languages, although that usually corrects itself. There is also a knock on effect on other subjects in the curriculum. Learning a foreign language for an hour every week in school is totally different from living in a household where the main language is different from that of most in the community.

From a practical point of view, it's a non-starter, because there just aren't enough primary trained teachers to teach languages at primary level. The Welch government is, apparently, having serious concerns about how it's going to staff its schools when Welch as a first language becomes compulsory, even in English first language schools.

gillybob It's not only in the North East. I've known primary schools change languages half way through the year because a teacher left, but a teaching assistant or dinner lady (or whoever) happened to speak another language, so they changed to a new language. Languages in primary schools, as it currently operates, is a waste of time. There is a handful of excellent teachers and efforts have been made to produce inspiring teaching resources beyond colouring in, but it's not consistent and primary schools don't see languages as a priority when their budgets are cut (can't say I blame them).

The government comes up with vanity projects, such as the current one based at the University of York, which has been given £300,000. There have been projects like this before, but they're underfunded and are often cut when the next Education Minister comes along. They tick a box so the government can say it's doing something, but in reality have little or no effect. The projects need to be sustained for at least a generation (20/30 years?) to have any effect.

None of the curriculum time tables are fitted around 'allowing' a child to 'fit in' a language with their other choices,even if they want to,my son told me( hes just done GCSE's) that very few chose a language,as it wouldn't fit on the timetable for their other options and core groups- his friend chose german but failed it.

growstuff I'm not sure how you managed to extrapolate from my post the idea that I thought we should go back to grammar and secondary modern schools!

In fact I believe that everyone in secondary school should learn the core subjects which even my DC did but years ago now which were English (language and literature), maths, science, a modern language and a humanity, other subjects to be optional which could mean taking two languages (only two were on offer then and neither was Welsh!).

If language teaching has been poor in the last few years it will follow that there is now a lack of language teachers. If those in my family are anything to go by, they have no problem with job opportunities which is excellent for them and their pupils but worrying for language teaching in general.

Lovely video Marydoll- not sure it would have gone down tooooo well with my 6th Formers though x bise

growstuff there have been problems already because some Welsh schools received ratings lower than they should have done merely because their teaching of Welsh was very poor or practically non-existent. Why? Because there were so few teachers. Catch 22.
The standard to achieve a good grade in the Welsh Baccalaureate is apparently very low however.

When my kids were in Primary school, French teachers were lovely and kind, but teaching was mainly list of strange vocab, etc, and not very communicative. And it is the same currently here in Switzerland and France - because there are so few teachers with communicative fluency and training around. Such a shame. The assumption being made that you don't have to be very good to teach at primary level. Which is utter nonsense - you have to be a much much better teacher to teach early years and get kids onto a good start which makes them want to learn, and feel confident.

Callistemon Because you suggested that we should concentrate on the "basics" until Year 11. That's what elementary and secondary modern schools did (except is was only up to Year 10).

One of my grandsons put no effort at all into his french lessons. The other one has chosen to take Spanish, which I don't think will be as useful as French would have been. Don't know how we'd manage on holiday without my fluently French speaking daughter. I am quite cross with GSs for not taking the opportunity to learn. Maybe it's a boy thing.

PS. Welch in a previous post was a typo.

To be absolutely honest, I don't see the point in the Welsh insisting children learn Welsh. Waste of their time.

I remember my late mum telling me they were all taught latin in her catholic school(they attended one school all the yrs from 5- 14 then) and of course the ones who were 'clever enough'- as she put it- could win a scholarship at 11 plus exam,to go to grammar school,where there were a few languages to be learned.(mum was,but could not attend as they couldn't afford the uniform/equipment neccessary, it was wartime)my own kids have had times where french or spanish was taught,at first but this disappeared with the 'new curriculum',then it was choice only for a language,if you could fit it in somewhere with other options.my middle daughter was lucky enough to go to grammar school,and i believe french german and spanish was taught as part of daily timetable.Latin is no longer a 'requirement' of catholic schooling anymore..

A GCSE in any language (even a good grade) does not mean that the learner is fluent. What it does mean is that the learner has had a door opened for future language learning, as the need arises. The learner should be able to see patterns, which can be developed and adapted for learning other languages. Hopefully, some kind of cultural awareness is built into the course, so that learners don't see foreigners as aliens. They will hopefully begin to be less parochial and understand that there are different ways of doing things which have been taken for granted, which should lead to more open-mindedness about life in general.

Might it be more beneficial for english/ scottish/ irish children to learn welsh,(and possibly irish gaelic) so all Uk kids can speak each others languages?

I think Latin is quite useful to know when learning modern Latin-based languages.
Perhaps all primary school should learn Latin as a basis for forging ahead with French, Spanish, Italian etc at secondary school?

growstuff I thought 'the basics' were the five core subjects which always included a language.
A misunderstanding.

It might be Nannan2 but who would teach them?
Gonegirl Spanish is the second most spoken language in the world so actually a lot more useful than French (but not for your holiday! )

I thought welsh was spoken to welsh children from babies so they know their own mother tongue,as well as english?Same as other countries do? In france,germany etc,all over the world in fact, families surely do that?so why wouldn't welsh parents do so too?I even hear polish parents in my local area speaking to their children in both polish and english.(having said that,my youngest son was at school with a boy half english half italian,who cannot speak italian)!

Nannan a very low percentage of Welsh parents speak Welsh. It is more prevalent in some areas of course.

As I posted on another thread, hilarious interpretations can occur:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7702913.stm