Grammar Schools...... would you like to see a return?

Pantglas2

Actually Jilly, my question was rhetorical- expecting Tony Blair to abolish them was a non starter given his educational background.

I loved Thatcher’s retort about Grammar schools, that they’d enabled her to match the education received by Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn!

But the situation has changed since Thatcher was at school. Before the 1944 Education Act was enacted in 1947, few children after the age of 11 received anything other than an elementary education, unless they were exceptionally clever or paid for it. After 1947, all children were able to access grammar schools, so some whose parents wouldn't have been able to afford the fees were able to go. The offering in secondary moderns for the majority was still second-rate. These days, all children have access to a proper secondary education. It seems to me that many people on this thread are talking about a bygone era and not the situation as it is today.

Pantglas2

Actually Jilly, my question was rhetorical- expecting Tony Blair to abolish them was a non starter given his educational background.

I loved Thatcher’s retort about Grammar schools, that they’d enabled her to match the education received by Shirley Williams and Anthony Wedgwood Benn!

But the situation has changed since Thatcher was at school. Before the 1944 Education Act was enacted in 1947, few children after the age of 11 received anything other than an elementary education, unless they were exceptionally clever or paid for it. After 1947, all children were able to access grammar schools, so some whose parents wouldn't have been able to afford the fees were able to go. The offering in secondary moderns for the majority was still second-rate. These days, all children have access to a proper secondary education. It seems to me that many people on this thread are talking about a bygone era and not the situation as it is today.

Ooops! Sorry about the duplication.

Froggyspawn

barbaramcgibben

Why is it that only people whose children are not at grammar schools are against them?

I’m against grammar schools,I think they are unfair and divisive.I might change my mind if you could show me that a grammar/ secondary modern selective system produces the best education for all children,not just the academically able (who I think will also achieve well in a good comprehensive.).We have those areas where grammar schools never went away so it shouldn’t be difficult!
My children didn’t go to grammar schools,but I did -I was vety happy in my selective school,it suited me and I did well. But I thought it was an unfair system then,it divided my friendship group and created a them and us situation.I still think it’s a bad system now.

That's it isn't it Froggyspawn

That's it isn't it Froggyspawn. It comes down to do you want a divided system of them and us or one system that caters for each and every student.

We have a lot of GN members, it seems, who strive to tell us they are "better than" and want this to, continue half a century on - as long as it's for those they think are the "right" sort!

I agree with you MOnica. I haven't picked up every inaccuracy on this thread but they're quite enlightening.

My all girls grammar school had high standards all round. I loved it. DH who failed the 11+ was sent to a boarding school by his parents rather than to a secondary modern (although the nearest one to them was very good). He often comments on what a good school I must have attended when we're talking or watching quiz shows or documentaries on TV because quite often I'll say - 'Oh, we did that at school'. All our teachers were graduates in the subjects that they taught even though some of them probably didn't have a separate teaching qualification. When the school went comprehensive it went downhill, a friend's daughter who was there before and after the changeover said there was a huge drop in behaviour. Exam results were poor and eventually it closed.

No ,What Granny Helen?

My niece went to the local high school, titled a Comprehensive rather than the Grammar school, but her secondary education was streamed and was excellent. She is studying law. She worked hard to get into the top stream because she said there was too much disruption in the other streams.
I have mixed feelings about secondary education. For me and for my children, the Grammar was the best choice.
For my GC, if they could go to the secondary with the best results, that’s would be fine, but it’s always oversubscribed. Because they can’t be guaranteed a place there, I think my DD plans for them to sit the Grammar entrance exam.
Would the other secondaries be better if the grammar school did not exist? Who knows?

Mollygo It depends what percentage of the most able the grammar school takes. If it is anything more than 2 or 3%, there is absolutely no doubt that the pupils at the other secondary schools in the area would achieve better results.

In some areas, up to 25% of pupils go to grammar schools. If those pupils went to fully inclusive secondary schools, of course the results at those schools would improve.

If measured intelligence is plotted on a standard bell curve, approximately 60% of all people are within 10 points of being average. About 20% are above average (with the majority of them only being a little above average). It is inevitable that some pupils at some grammar schools are in the "average" group and are there through luck and/or tutoring.

Whether a child achieves highly depends to a large extent on genetics, family background and ... hard work.

Grandmama Why do you think less able pupils behave badly?

Myself and my daughter went to comprehensive schools. Her father was a boarder at a well known private boys school. His lack of awareness and intellect is embarrassing for us both. An old friend sent her granddaughter to a famous private girls school in South Kensington. The child has turned into a nasty entitled little snob. You can't buy intelligence/academic ability or class.

Growstuff, if one secondary gets the best results and is always oversubscribed, it’s like having a Grammar School, without an entrance exam.
I don’t know the %, but if 25% go to the grammar school and another large percentage of children likely to get good results go to the preferred secondary, it doesn’t bode well for the other schools.

The child has turned into a nasty entitled little snob.
A child shouldn't be damned for life in anyone's eyes just because of the school she went to.

I am not talking about 50 years ago as someone said upthread. The Grammar School my daughter went to was excellent, I did not like the Schools she could attend in my Borough. Of course there are excellent comps, but they have streaming and one when my daughter was younger one outside our area had what they called a grammar stream.
In her Grammar School she was in a class with pupils of mainly the same ability, she made friends and contacts for life. My daughter is very able to mix with people from all walks of life as het family and the people we knew kept her grounded. She knew her worth but did not have a sense of self importance.
My daughter had the best education possible and I would not begrudge this to other children.

IMO the trouble with any school that’s rated very good or outstanding, is that it’s all too likely to be in an area where house prices and rents are relatively high. So children from lower income families are often excluded because they’re outside the catchment area.

Mollygo
Yes I agree, the comprehensive three of my grandchildren attend near London is massively oversubscribed, you practically have to live on the doorstep, and having a sibling is no guarantee of a place.

Snorkel

Myself and my daughter went to comprehensive schools. Her father was a boarder at a well known private boys school. His lack of awareness and intellect is embarrassing for us both. An old friend sent her granddaughter to a famous private girls school in South Kensington. The child has turned into a nasty entitled little snob. You can't buy intelligence/academic ability or class.

What a unpleasant post. You state you and your daughter are embarrased by your husband. You refer to a child as a nasty entitled snob.
You are right you cannot buy class, you come across as a inverted snob and very judgemental. Who are you to be embarrased about anybody with a post like you have just written.

Snorkel

Myself and my daughter went to comprehensive schools. Her father was a boarder at a well known private boys school. His lack of awareness and intellect is embarrassing for us both. An old friend sent her granddaughter to a famous private girls school in South Kensington. The child has turned into a nasty entitled little snob. You can't buy intelligence/academic ability or class.

Wow. What a great example of inverted snobbery.

I wouldn't normally say anything about how people write - I have no room to criticise - but what a strange use of "myself".

rafichagran

I am not talking about 50 years ago as someone said upthread. The Grammar School my daughter went to was excellent, I did not like the Schools she could attend in my Borough. Of course there are excellent comps, but they have streaming and one when my daughter was younger one outside our area had what they called a grammar stream.
In her Grammar School she was in a class with pupils of mainly the same ability, she made friends and contacts for life. My daughter is very able to mix with people from all walks of life as het family and the people we knew kept her grounded. She knew her worth but did not have a sense of self importance.
My daughter had the best education possible and I would not begrudge this to other children.

I wonder if you realise how patronising that sounds.

Yes, there most certainly are excellent comprehensive schools, mainly in areas where there are no grammar schools to select the most able.

By the way, very few schools "stream" these days - they "set", which means a child could be in one set for maths and another one for English. They are likely to mix with children of all abilities in some subjects.

Both my children are very able and went to a comprehensive school, where they made friends and contacts for life. They were even the "right" sort of contacts. They also had a more balanced experience than I did - a former direct grammar school pupil.

Your daughter might have had an excellent education, but you really don't seem the slightest bit bothered that there will be others in your borough whose school will have been affected by losing the most able and might very well find themselves stigmatised for attending a school which you consider second rate.

No child will be deprived of the experience your daughter had in a genuinely inclusive comprehensive.

Witzend

IMO the trouble with any school that’s rated very good or outstanding, is that it’s all too likely to be in an area where house prices and rents are relatively high. So children from lower income families are often excluded because they’re outside the catchment area.

Not inevitably.

Mollygo

Growstuff, if one secondary gets the best results and is always oversubscribed, it’s like having a Grammar School, without an entrance exam.
I don’t know the %, but if 25% go to the grammar school and another large percentage of children likely to get good results go to the preferred secondary, it doesn’t bode well for the other schools.

No, it's not. Grammar schools select and cannot be compared with an all-ability school.

Your last paragraph explains perfectly why all schools should be supported to be good and why the attempt to make them competitive and obey market forces has been detrimental to education as a whole.

Should we not be asking ourselves what makes a good comprehensive good, when there are so many bad ones, and I’m not talking about being in affluent areas. There are some good comprehensives now in poorer catchments. If we address this, could not all comprehensives be as good as the best ones, and equally as good as grammar schools, as some are?

One of our local Comprehensive schools has an Entrance Test for pupils not in the catchment area.

This is basically the 11+ by another name!

GG13, that’s just what it sounds like and I think, once one school does it, others will follow. The selection process is alive and well under a different hat.
The only difference will be the choice of whether or not to sit the entrance exam instead of making everyone take it, whether it is suitable or not.

We have grammar schools in our County, entrance by 11+ , 13+ or sixth form (depending on GCSE results)

Several of the single sex faith schools also operate an entrance exam system, it’s appears to be spreading across the County.