Grammar Schools...... would you like to see a return?

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Surely, if 25% passed the 11+ - then that meant that 75% of children, at the age of 11 years, were made to feel 'failures'. Horrific.!!!

Franbern the percentages varied according to grammar school provision in different areas of the country as the pass mark obviously related to number of places available. Apparently up to 35% of pupils in Kent "passed" the 11+ whereas in the Midlands the percentage was as low as 10%.
There was more provision for boys than girls, too.

mumofmadboys

I went to a grammar school. 4 of our 5 sons went to a grammar school. However I think a well streamed comprehensive with movement as appropriate between the streams is the best idea. No child should be made to feel a failure at 11.

I agree.

Surely, if 25% passed the 11+ - then that meant that 75% of children, at the age of 11 years, were made to feel 'failures'. Horrific.!!!

My eldest child got a scholarship to one of the local minor public schools, he four younger sisters and younger brother all progressed through the local Comprehensive schools. All did equally well, all went on to good Universities and achieved good degrees.

Do wish that this country would seriously look at countries like Finland and Holland - all Scandinavia to see why so many more of their children do so much better educationally that ours do.

They start formal schooling later, do not have fee-paying schools, treat all children equally - and get so much better results.

Regressing to a past 'failed' system of education cannot be a good answer. Looking around and learning from those that have far better systems is what we should be doing.

Exactly Lucca. If a good education for a few (who are not necessarily the "brightest" but who may have had certain advantages, such as private tuition) means a less than good education for the many, it doesn't seem a great idea to me.

Every person should be educated to their potential and have opportunities to explore their skills and abilities, without being shoved off into some sort of educational backwater.

How else are we to create a society where everyone feels they have a valuable part to play, where every individual can gain self-worth not just through the job they do but through the interests they have and the contribution they make outside of formal employment.

henetha

I'm sure that is true these days, westendgirl, but back in the 40's and 50's when I was a schoolgirl the alternative to the Grammar School would probably have been the local secondary modern which had a dreadful reputation back then. (I won't name it, and I know it has improved greatly since)
So I was very relieved that I passed my 11+.

BUt what about those who didn’t pass and had to go to the dreadful secondary modern ?

I'm sure that is true these days, westendgirl, but back in the 40's and 50's when I was a schoolgirl the alternative to the Grammar School would probably have been the local secondary modern which had a dreadful reputation back then. (I won't name it, and I know it has improved greatly since)
So I was very relieved that I passed my 11+.

. Henetha what makes you think you would not be treated well. in a comprehensive ?. I can assure you that there are many heads, teachers, assistants who are inspiring working in all ..
.modern day schools . ~Times have changed.
By the way Lucca thank you. .

The Grammar School that I attended in Torquay is still there, fortunately. I am all in favour of them. Not all children are the same and some will benefit more from Grammar Schools.
I did because I was a quiet and unhappy child and was treated kindly at my school. The headmistress was inspiring and deeply respected.

westendgirl

I would not like to see the return of the Grammar school as I feel they are divisive and some children only get in because of extra private tuition. I have taught in excellent secondary moderns by the way and also excellent comprehensives. Nanna rose is quite correct....you cannot have comprehensive education in an area where you cream off the top layer .
I would like to see a return to the respect for education and for teachers that I experienced when I started my career. I would most definitely like to see less interference from politicians who more often than not have little idea how to engage young people and set unrealistic targets, and use their interference as a stepping stone .I would like to see schools being allowed what they can do... TEACH. They know their children, their background , their lifestyles. Let them get on with it.

Such a good post !

The non white and migrant ( children of European migrants) intake of our grammar schools is quite high, the parents do value that type of education. It’s very competitive, many parents pay for extra tuition, that’s a bad idea a marginal pass because of extra tuition is not good.

I passed the 11+ without ever having heard of it.

One Friday we were told that we would be taking a special test the next week and were put through 20 minute sample papers in Maths, English and Non-verbal Reasoning. I quite enjoyed them.

Years later I realised that as my junior school was halfway up Highgate Hill in London the kids who lived further up the hill would have had access to sample papers in their local stationers and, given that their parents were all professionals, tutors.

No matter. Off I trotted to Grammar School and it was dire. I was in trouble every day, sometimes more than once because I was missing items of uniform.

Eventually I worked out a system which involved attending the first week or so of term then bunking off until the last two weeks when I would borrow a friend's exercise books over a weekend, learn them off by heart and come top in exams such as History, Geography and Biology.

Unfortunately it didn't work for Maths and French. I was in my thirties before I found out that a minus times a minus is a plus.

My point is that if I could take in a terms worth of information on a subject in a weekend it can't have been much of an educative experience.

nanna8

If you went to a grammar you received a really good education, far superior to what seems to be available now. It wasn’t fair, I can see that but we did have to work hard and that was an expectation. If you didn’t do well enough you were sent to the dreaded sec mod. There was a lot of pressure to succeed in general passing exam terms but no thought for other rounding of personality etc at my school. A great depth of curriculum but not a breadth - we were limited in what subjects we could study . We were not allowed to mix ‘arts’ and ‘science’ which I still regret to this day. I used to love biology and chemistry but also English and history but had to choose. I chose wrongly, in retrospect.

I went to a highly selective direct grant grammar school. My children went to a comprehensive school. I can honestly say they worked as hard as I did and the expectations were high.

All schools limit the choice of exam subjects, although it's rare for there to be arts and science pathways at GCSE. The bigger a school is, the more flexible options can be.

NanKate

We have Grammar Schools in Bucks and they are very popular. My DS had a great education at his GS. The Comprehensive in our town also has a good reputation too. I think children should go to the school that best suits their needs.

If there are grammar schools, the other schools aren't comprehensive. By definition they can't be because they don't have the most able pupils.

I would not like to see the return of the Grammar school as I feel they are divisive and some children only get in because of extra private tuition. I have taught in excellent secondary moderns by the way and also excellent comprehensives. Nanna rose is quite correct....you cannot have comprehensive education in an area where you cream off the top layer .
I would like to see a return to the respect for education and for teachers that I experienced when I started my career. I would most definitely like to see less interference from politicians who more often than not have little idea how to engage young people and set unrealistic targets, and use their interference as a stepping stone .I would like to see schools being allowed what they can do... TEACH. They know their children, their background , their lifestyles. Let them get on with it.

I am not going to write about the respective merits of different education systems. BUT

Any area that creams off children into any sort of selective school, does not then have 'comprehensives'.

Obviously I didn't learn to spell at the Grammar school!
Or type
?

Grandma70s

Alegrias1 - were there different teachers for the different streams? The brightest need very intellectual teachers, the lower streams need a different kind of teaching. This is what puzzles me about the idea that streaming solves everything. Can schools afford so many teachers?

Comprehensives are usually large Grandma70s so there will be at least 3 streams for each subject across the year group, probably 6.

Someone who excels at languages may be average in maths so it is better for all.

I went to a grammar school but the secondary modern schools in out town were very good too.

I would also like to see more grammar schools, I would also welcome a return of technical colleges which were also another alternative when I was at school.
They encouraged children who may have not been academic but very clever at using their hands so to speak.
They encouraged children in jobs like plumbing electricians etc.

Blinko

Someone - was it Harold Wilson? - said that Grammar Schools were the greatest experiment in social mobility in our lifetime. I'd like to see both Grammar and Comprehensive Schools running across the country to give people the best opportunity to achieve the best for each child as an individual.

The more academically inclined could gravitate to the Grammar School, the more practical or technically gifted could gain a sound education in the Comprehensive School.

They would need to be viewed as of equal educational value though, not as being in competition with each other.

I know (former) teachers will have views on this. It has probably been rehashed before on GN.

This says it all for me. Good post.

We have Grammar Schools in Bucks and they are very popular. My DS had a great education at his GS. The Comprehensive in our town also has a good reputation too. I think children should go to the school that best suits their needs.

If you went to a grammar you received a really good education, far superior to what seems to be available now. It wasn’t fair, I can see that but we did have to work hard and that was an expectation. If you didn’t do well enough you were sent to the dreaded sec mod. There was a lot of pressure to succeed in general passing exam terms but no thought for other rounding of personality etc at my school. A great depth of curriculum but not a breadth - we were limited in what subjects we could study . We were not allowed to mix ‘arts’ and ‘science’ which I still regret to this day. I used to love biology and chemistry but also English and history but had to choose. I chose wrongly, in retrospect.

There is still a grammar system in some areas. I don't think it is a good system but I admit I'm biased because I didn't pass the 11 plus and thereafter believed it meant I was not capable of doing very much at all jobwise.

I think it's awful to make young people feel like failures.

Of course, those who believe they are intellectually superior and that they benefited from the selective system are all in favour of it.

A brilliant system for those who pass, not good for those who don't!! The 11+ was disastrous - judging a child at 11 is so WRONG. I failed the 11+ and was subjected to a dreadful education in a secondary modern school - left at 15. Worked hard in further education which led me to higher education and a first class degree from Manchester university. Fortunately we no longer have secondary modern schools. Failing that exam on that morning had detremental effect on me and one I wouldn't wish on any child. mumofmadboys I applaud you !

Nanna8
In our class three of us failed, three girls, my best friend passed, and my parents were furious, not a good time.
We had done loads of test papers, our head master constantly drummed into us how it would determine our lives.
We were all sent to Boots to buy glucose sweets for energy, but still I failed.
I’m definitely not saying it wasn’t fair, and I shouldn’t have failed, but I was ten, as were lots of my classmates, way too young to have your fate determined by a few tests.