Grammar Schools...... would you like to see a return?

As we seem to be drawing conclusions from fifty years ago, my second of three secondary level schools was a bilateral school - an early experiment in what became comprehensive education. As pupils came and went in different years, and constantly, everyone was put in middle sets when they arrived. Within the year they were moved into appropriate sets and that certainly didn't look like streaming and worked very successfully. But ... it was a school of 300 pupils with classes of about 20 on a good day. One of are biggest issues is class sizes.

I failed my 11+ but all of my friends passed. Devastating to a shy 11 year old. I went to Sec Mod passed all of my exams. The Grammar girls failed all of theirs (one kept running away from school and never settled there). In actuality the workload was far too much for those girls. It’s fine ‘tutoring’ children to pass the 11+ but without natural ability they are going to struggle.

Frogsinmygarden I mostly agree about tutoring children who wouldn’t make to a grammar school without it. Mostly, because some children’s ‘natural ability’ develops later.
Tutoring the way you imply wasn’t mentioned when I was that age. Everyone had to do the 11+ and we were all drilled into how to tackle maths, English and verbal reasoning questions in school. The parents who could have afforded tutoring would probably have sent their children to private schools.

adaunas we weren’t all drilled into how to tackle the 11 plus. Some schools did no preparation

Everyone in my class at school passed the 11plus except one girl who was really upset because she was afraid of what her father would say. Awful for her. I remember hugging her and her crying. We were streamed and no one in the other class passed, they all went to the secondary modern. I have often wondered if they were very good at streaming or ,more likely, the ones in the other class were just fulfilling expectations.

Iam64

adaunas we weren’t all drilled into how to tackle the 11 plus. Some schools did no preparation

Sorry, drilled is perhaps the wrong word. Depending on your age on here, you’d be familiar with the dreaded Progress Papers and that lovely First Aid in English book. Even if you didn’t, it would be a strange school where you didn’t have frequent tests on tables, mental arithmetic, mechanical arithmetic, spelling and comprehension which had the same effect.

I’d forgotten what the booklets were called. I still have my First Aid in English somewhere.

I knew nothing about the 11 plus until the day I sat it - and I wasn't clear what it was all about even then.

In my final year in Junior school, the first term had been spent in a government school in Hong Kong, I then missed a terms schooling because first my sister then I got chicken pox and we were waiting to move from Hong Kong to Singapore and I started again in a new school in Singapore in the summer term.

A few weeks in a teacher put his head round the classroom door and said 'Anyone here not done their Moray House? I put my hand up to say 'What is the Moray House?' and was immediately taken out of the classroom with several others and about 6 of us went into a classroom to discover we had to do some tests. The usual maths, English and Verbal reasoning. A few weeks later my parents got a letter to say that I would be going to the army grammar school in September.

No fuss, no bother, no worrying, no practice.

*The Moray House was an 11 plus equivalent set by an educational institute in Edinburgh and taken by children in British style education overseas.

Nanna8
In our class three of us failed, three girls, my best friend passed, and my parents were furious, not a good time.
We had done loads of test papers, our head master constantly drummed into us how it would determine our lives.
We were all sent to Boots to buy glucose sweets for energy, but still I failed.
I’m definitely not saying it wasn’t fair, and I shouldn’t have failed, but I was ten, as were lots of my classmates, way too young to have your fate determined by a few tests.

A brilliant system for those who pass, not good for those who don't!! The 11+ was disastrous - judging a child at 11 is so WRONG. I failed the 11+ and was subjected to a dreadful education in a secondary modern school - left at 15. Worked hard in further education which led me to higher education and a first class degree from Manchester university. Fortunately we no longer have secondary modern schools. Failing that exam on that morning had detremental effect on me and one I wouldn't wish on any child. mumofmadboys I applaud you !

There is still a grammar system in some areas. I don't think it is a good system but I admit I'm biased because I didn't pass the 11 plus and thereafter believed it meant I was not capable of doing very much at all jobwise.

I think it's awful to make young people feel like failures.

Of course, those who believe they are intellectually superior and that they benefited from the selective system are all in favour of it.

If you went to a grammar you received a really good education, far superior to what seems to be available now. It wasn’t fair, I can see that but we did have to work hard and that was an expectation. If you didn’t do well enough you were sent to the dreaded sec mod. There was a lot of pressure to succeed in general passing exam terms but no thought for other rounding of personality etc at my school. A great depth of curriculum but not a breadth - we were limited in what subjects we could study . We were not allowed to mix ‘arts’ and ‘science’ which I still regret to this day. I used to love biology and chemistry but also English and history but had to choose. I chose wrongly, in retrospect.

We have Grammar Schools in Bucks and they are very popular. My DS had a great education at his GS. The Comprehensive in our town also has a good reputation too. I think children should go to the school that best suits their needs.

Blinko

Someone - was it Harold Wilson? - said that Grammar Schools were the greatest experiment in social mobility in our lifetime. I'd like to see both Grammar and Comprehensive Schools running across the country to give people the best opportunity to achieve the best for each child as an individual.

The more academically inclined could gravitate to the Grammar School, the more practical or technically gifted could gain a sound education in the Comprehensive School.

They would need to be viewed as of equal educational value though, not as being in competition with each other.

I know (former) teachers will have views on this. It has probably been rehashed before on GN.

This says it all for me. Good post.

I would also like to see more grammar schools, I would also welcome a return of technical colleges which were also another alternative when I was at school.
They encouraged children who may have not been academic but very clever at using their hands so to speak.
They encouraged children in jobs like plumbing electricians etc.

Grandma70s

Alegrias1 - were there different teachers for the different streams? The brightest need very intellectual teachers, the lower streams need a different kind of teaching. This is what puzzles me about the idea that streaming solves everything. Can schools afford so many teachers?

Comprehensives are usually large Grandma70s so there will be at least 3 streams for each subject across the year group, probably 6.

Someone who excels at languages may be average in maths so it is better for all.

I went to a grammar school but the secondary modern schools in out town were very good too.

Obviously I didn't learn to spell at the Grammar school!
Or type
?

I am not going to write about the respective merits of different education systems. BUT

Any area that creams off children into any sort of selective school, does not then have 'comprehensives'.

I would not like to see the return of the Grammar school as I feel they are divisive and some children only get in because of extra private tuition. I have taught in excellent secondary moderns by the way and also excellent comprehensives. Nanna rose is quite correct....you cannot have comprehensive education in an area where you cream off the top layer .
I would like to see a return to the respect for education and for teachers that I experienced when I started my career. I would most definitely like to see less interference from politicians who more often than not have little idea how to engage young people and set unrealistic targets, and use their interference as a stepping stone .I would like to see schools being allowed what they can do... TEACH. They know their children, their background , their lifestyles. Let them get on with it.

NanKate

We have Grammar Schools in Bucks and they are very popular. My DS had a great education at his GS. The Comprehensive in our town also has a good reputation too. I think children should go to the school that best suits their needs.

If there are grammar schools, the other schools aren't comprehensive. By definition they can't be because they don't have the most able pupils.

nanna8

If you went to a grammar you received a really good education, far superior to what seems to be available now. It wasn’t fair, I can see that but we did have to work hard and that was an expectation. If you didn’t do well enough you were sent to the dreaded sec mod. There was a lot of pressure to succeed in general passing exam terms but no thought for other rounding of personality etc at my school. A great depth of curriculum but not a breadth - we were limited in what subjects we could study . We were not allowed to mix ‘arts’ and ‘science’ which I still regret to this day. I used to love biology and chemistry but also English and history but had to choose. I chose wrongly, in retrospect.

I went to a highly selective direct grant grammar school. My children went to a comprehensive school. I can honestly say they worked as hard as I did and the expectations were high.

All schools limit the choice of exam subjects, although it's rare for there to be arts and science pathways at GCSE. The bigger a school is, the more flexible options can be.

I passed the 11+ without ever having heard of it.

One Friday we were told that we would be taking a special test the next week and were put through 20 minute sample papers in Maths, English and Non-verbal Reasoning. I quite enjoyed them.

Years later I realised that as my junior school was halfway up Highgate Hill in London the kids who lived further up the hill would have had access to sample papers in their local stationers and, given that their parents were all professionals, tutors.

No matter. Off I trotted to Grammar School and it was dire. I was in trouble every day, sometimes more than once because I was missing items of uniform.

Eventually I worked out a system which involved attending the first week or so of term then bunking off until the last two weeks when I would borrow a friend's exercise books over a weekend, learn them off by heart and come top in exams such as History, Geography and Biology.

Unfortunately it didn't work for Maths and French. I was in my thirties before I found out that a minus times a minus is a plus.

My point is that if I could take in a terms worth of information on a subject in a weekend it can't have been much of an educative experience.

The non white and migrant ( children of European migrants) intake of our grammar schools is quite high, the parents do value that type of education. It’s very competitive, many parents pay for extra tuition, that’s a bad idea a marginal pass because of extra tuition is not good.

westendgirl

I would not like to see the return of the Grammar school as I feel they are divisive and some children only get in because of extra private tuition. I have taught in excellent secondary moderns by the way and also excellent comprehensives. Nanna rose is quite correct....you cannot have comprehensive education in an area where you cream off the top layer .
I would like to see a return to the respect for education and for teachers that I experienced when I started my career. I would most definitely like to see less interference from politicians who more often than not have little idea how to engage young people and set unrealistic targets, and use their interference as a stepping stone .I would like to see schools being allowed what they can do... TEACH. They know their children, their background , their lifestyles. Let them get on with it.

Such a good post !

The Grammar School that I attended in Torquay is still there, fortunately. I am all in favour of them. Not all children are the same and some will benefit more from Grammar Schools.
I did because I was a quiet and unhappy child and was treated kindly at my school. The headmistress was inspiring and deeply respected.