Grammar Schools...... would you like to see a return?

Kent is a county with a number of grammar schools and apart from a couple of well heeled areas most are in run down poor areas along the estuary. I live in a poor area with many social and economic problems but have 4 grammar schools in walking distance which give opportunities to bright children of not so well off parents. Both my children went to one of these.
There are only a few counties in the uk where they are retained most closed and there are only about 160 left, so for the most part children will go to non selective or if wealthy to fee paying schools.
Sadly we only see academia of any value. Anything else not.
In Germany youngsters can go to a gymnasium ( grammar) or technical school and neither is valued over the other and no one feels a ‘failure’ as they start secondary education at 11. There is equal respect for both.
Someone mentioned earlier that many grans writing about their school often mention grammar school , amd i have noticed this too, so will end by saying I mostly enjoyed my secondary education. Years later I got studying and got my degree and following that with a few O levels and then a professional qualification but it was the longer and harder road.
My 11 year old gd starts a new school in September and passed the tests with flying colours. However if all children are taught well and work hard they can and will succeed wherever they go at 11.

Ellianne

I think there is a misconception by some posters here that people with money can buy their children more success in life. You can't actually buy a brain. What you can buy is confidence and discipline which might be the factors that influence parents who can afford it to pay for tuition.
Elitism can come in many forms - academic, monetary, social.

No misconceptions at all Ellianne Of course money can buy their children success in life, otherwise why are they spending the money? Why should people be able to buy confidence and discipline? ( I assume you mean self discipline?). Teach those things, don't buy them.

Sorry, still angry, it's all so ridiculous.

Secondary Modern Schools - would you like to see a return?

No, I wouldn’t. To be told at 11 that you’re a failure, won’t have the education or opportunities that the pupils at the Grammar School is just wrong.

Comprehensive schools, properly funded, with smaller class sizes are better than dividing children in the way they were is just wrong.

although some would say it’s wrong to sacrifice your child on the altar of your principles

And there you have it Suzie! If the above is wrong for your own child, how come it’s fine for everyone else’s?

Comment heard from someone whose. Children amd grandchildren were privately educated.
Her son was teaching briefly in a state school and her comment was that he managed to teach the class despite there being 32 in it. Had to point out that is the number in every state school class. Another world!

Ellianne I disagree. Sometimes, but not all the time, money can buy children success in life - your children have their name down for elite private school at birth and move through the system where they meet other rich kids useful for the old boy network, and then get employment in daddy’s firm. This used to be especially true in stockbroking although in later years more from non elite backgrounds have been able to get positions. If daddy owns the company you are still more or less guaranteed a position.

Alegrias1 How can money buy success?
Our sons went to a public school, many of their peers are not successful.
They have been well educated, disciplined and given a good foundation, the rest is up to them.
I don’t believe the name of the school made any difference on a CV or university application.
It possibly went against them..

Iam64

Totally agree with you, I did ok, but we were limited from the minute we walked through those secondary modern doors.

I have a lot of ex grammar school friends, who like a lot of ladies here, seem to be very proud to have attended them.

I liked school, I have a lot of happy memories, but our junior school head drummed it into our heads that if we ended up in the SM all we could hope to achieve would be working in a biscuit factory, why a biscuit factory, I have no idea, because there wasn’t one locally.

At my secondary modern
career options were office, shop
or factory. No expectation of anything more.
No doubt that narrow view has changed.

I liked the grammar schools ,they had a very high standard of education or at least the one I went to did. There is a certain amount of discrimination against very bright children these days, I see that they are quite disadvantaged, particularly if they are not particularly outspoken. Subtle but definitely there. Reverse of what things used to be I think.

Growstuff I dont assume the Grammar School education was best for my daughter, I know it was. I did not think the other Schools near me were suitable for her.
I do feel the Grammar Schools were the best for a good education in the area I live in, but you are entitled to your opinion, I do not know where you live so cannot comment on the Schools in your area.
In every School you find pupils who are unhappy. My daughter had a wonderful time at School, and a all round positive experience.

No!! My poor late brother just scraped through and got into our grammar school and he suffered for it all his school life, he wasn’t mentally equipped to be at grammer school.I can still see him now struggling home with a satchel full of books, he was only a small child thin with glasses and to think of it now makes me so sad...

If all comprehensives were good, no-one would miss grammar schools, but they aren’t. My grandson’s comprehensive is as good as any grammar school and they have a good record of getting pupils into Russell Group universities and Oxbridge, but it is one of a few, in an affluent area. We should be working to bring up standards in all schools in all areas, instead of hankering after a system where huge numbers of children were condemned as ‘also rans’, which happened when I was at school. Having said that, being the product of a secondary modern didn’t necessarily mean that you would “end up working in Woolworths” - a warning that was often held over us if school work was slipping. Many of us left and went on to technical colleges, boys into apprenticeships and from there often into middle management positions in industry. My cousin went down this route and had a career that would have been the envy of many who left grammar school to follow more mundane careers. But there were jobs and opportunities in industry and commerce in those days that don’t exist today.

Sago. Imagine two children, equally intelligent, equally keen to learn, equally confident. One goes to a school where the class sizes are 30+, funds are stretched to the limit, there's no money for extras like music lessons or sport, teachers are run ragged. The other goes to a school where there are small classes, every child gets individual attention, mummy and daddy can afford violin lessons and the science labs are fully kitted out.

Now, what are the chances that each child is going to be successful?

Not every child at public is going to do well, and not every child in a secondary modern will be consigned to the gutter. But when it comes to life chances, your parents' money buys you opportunity. And that's no way to run a society.

And as for the notion that attending a good school or being intelligent is now being discriminated against. Words fail me.

Alegrias1 Success and opportunity are two different things.
I agree a public school education gave our sons more opportunity.
Their success they earned.

Oxbridge have openly admitted they have discriminated against private/ public school pupils.
I understand their reasons.

We still have grammar schools and many parents go to a great deal of effort to get their children into one, even to the extent of extra tuition. I didn’t do that because either they have the natural ability to cope with the higher workload or they havn’t and the burden of struggling at the bottom of the class is not good.
I failed my 11 plus and I’m glad I did because I would not have done well, high school suited me well, there is no doubt that grammar schools places here are in demand, particularly the Girls Grammar.

“Oxbridge have openly admitted they have discriminated against private/ public school pupils.”

Yes, but that’s entirely political, due to the threat of loosing public financing, quite rightly too.

growstuff

foxie I think you've misunderstood what I meant. If there are grammar schools in the same area as academies, the academies aren't fully inclusive. They are, in effect, secondary moderns because they don't have the most able pupils. Therefore, they are the result of a selective system.

Yes I did but actually grammars (where they still exist) cream off middle class kids from across a wide area, including out of the authority, not necessarily the most able. In most authorities, I don't think they impact very much on the mix of ability in comps, in authorities like Bucks and Kent, they most definitely do though. I'm not pro grammar schools, these days they are not the route to social mobility that they used to be. I know lots of parents who pay for private coaching with the view that if they get a grammar school place they save the money they would have spent on a fee paying school!

rafichagran I didn't wish to imply kids who fail their 11+ should feel bad, it's just some do.

No, no, no, to grammar schools, I passed the 11 plus went to
girls grammar school, my sister failed and went to secondary modern. Christmas celebrations girls grammar and boys grammar celebrated together, no mixing with the sec mod.
It’s brutal.

My daughters and three grandchildren went to the High School, it worked well for them, two grandchildren went to university , third grandchild in her third year.

The biggest problem is that even if you ban private education and grammar schools, not all comprehensive schools provide equal education opportunities, and it's naive to think they do. Why else are houses in the catchment areas of "good" comprehensives more expensive than houses surrounding poorly achieving schools? My children all went to the local comprehensive, not considered the best, we couldn't afford a house in that catchment area. What we didn't do, but know others that did (even some at the good school), was buy privilege by employing private tutors. I really don't see the difference between private tutoring of a state school pupil and buying the whole education at a private school. Both are using their money to buy education and advantage.

Your last sentence is interesting Rosie.
I really don't see the difference between private tutoring of a state school pupil and buying the whole education at a private school. Both are using their money to buy education and advantage.
From an educational point of view you might even be getting more for your money in employing a 1:1 teacher for your state school child. (But might need to do this 5 nights a week to pack in all the subjects).
In an independent school you are paying a lot for the value added - like the facilities for sports, music, drama and dance, the posh lunches etc. It's a sort of package, but if parents can find the time to pack in swimming, ballet, rugby, etc at the weekend then you could find the education is much of a muchness.

Ah but will you and your child make all the valuable social connections without membership of "the old boys club"?

varian

Ah but will you and your child make all the valuable social connections without membership of "the old boys club"?

Possibly not varian.

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