Children not ready to start school aged 4

GrannyGravy13

DaisyAnne I agree with your last post. Parents of every generation do their best for their children, each generation has its difficulties and different needs.

We have had two GC born just before the first lockdown, they have different needs to their older siblings/cousins, especially their social skills, interactions with others.

A parents job is not, nor has it ever been easy.

... and nobody gives new parents a handbook. Most make it up as they go along.

^Kandinsky Fri 11-Mar-22 14:26:42
It's such a shame that the tories closed down Sure Start

How about lazy parents teach their children how to hold a pencil & take time away from social media to potty train them?

Inadequate parents expect schools/ the government to do everything.

I’d be embarrassed if my child was still in nappies at 4.^
Must be great to live in a world where 'lazy parents'' children don't deserve help from outside agencies. Sure Start was great for the middle classes, but was vital for the many parents who struggled due to a myriad of reasons, of which 'laziness' was rarely one. Chaotic lives lived in isolationf for 5 years do untold damage to children. Sure Start and good quality nursery provision can change that around. Many children in one of the nurseries I worked with came from families where not a single book was owned. They had little experience of playing, certainly not with sensory toys, playdo, sand etc and had not been taught any social skills. 'Tying their own laces' was not a priority! The state has a moral obligation to provide help for these children, or another generation will be lost, another generation created who have no clue of what a childhood should encompass. Being sneering at these parents does not help their neglected children and does not benefit society.

Is it the teacher’s fault that children of four aren’t able to communicate? Could it be their parents or more often, carers are too busy chatting on their mobiles and not communicating with their children? I see it all the time, Mum and Dad, mobiles in hand ignoring their very young children. Often just Mum with pushchair chatting to someone else and not their child.

You don't need to love children to teach them about toilet hygiene, manners, how to sit still and listen, hold pencils, to draw and colour, count and to hold a simple conversation, tie shoelaces (why?), sit at a table, eat with a knife and fork, to understand money (does that include cards?) and to tell the time.

PS. Nurseries have a higher staff ratio than reception classes, unless one of the staff has a Level 6 qualification (I checked).

Kandinsky

*It's such a shame that the tories closed down Sure Start*

How about lazy parents teach their children how to hold a pencil & take time away from social media to potty train them?

Inadequate parents expect schools/ the government to do everything.

I’d be embarrassed if my child was still in nappies at 4.

Well, that was part of the aim of Sure Start, to help parents develop parenting skills. Cutting its funding , waiting until their children start school and then moaning about their 'inadequacy' doesn't do anything to help, does it?

JennyCee

Is it the teacher’s fault that children of four aren’t able to communicate? Could it be their parents or more often, carers are too busy chatting on their mobiles and not communicating with their children? I see it all the time, Mum and Dad, mobiles in hand ignoring their very young children. Often just Mum with pushchair chatting to someone else and not their child.

Do you observe them in their homes too?

Has there been an influx of judgemental posters who either don’t know or don’t care that some families need support

Iam64

Has there been an influx of judgemental posters who either don’t know or don’t care that some families need support

the thread was on the daily email that gransnet sends out. It always happens!

I agree with you Anneba. Many of the children who need pre-school nurseries or other childcare settings aren't getting it. Sneering at the parents and labelling them "inadequate" doesn't help the children.

I suspect the ideal age for starting school is somewhere between about 4 and 7, depending on the individual. It's a shame there can't be more flexibility and support for the younger children, whose parents might be struggling.

MaizieD

Goodness, teachers have been saying this for years.

It's such a shame that the tories closed down Sure Start.

The children's centres that were previously Sure Start still exist in many areas, it was down to the local authority that some were closed. I worked in one until very recently, and they worked on the same principles. Unfortunately, due to Covid-19, the service offer was recently through zoom, so the socialisation, etc, was not there, and educators were less able to identify families needing extra support.

Im reading with awe the posters who say their children/grandchildren could read and write a little, do simple maths and use a knife and fork etc before starting school. One of my sons was an August baby and started school really young, the school made no allowances for many of his class mates being 9/10/11 months older than him, he never caught up throughout his school life and was always playing catch-up.
I’ve read it’s now possible for summer babies to be deferred and start the next year but I’ve also heard it’s very difficult to get this. Someone I know was told their summer born child was ready to start school despite him being born premature, having cerebral palsy and no speech. Needless to say it was a disaster and he’s now also been diagnosed with autism.
I’m writing this after my soon to be 3 year old grandson has been picked up. As usual he’s been a tornado all day and won’t be pinned down for me to read a book to him, make cakes or any sort of arty stuff but he did enjoy the hour and half running free in the local park. He’s very different from his older more studious sister.
And yes I do think four is too young for a lot of children to start school.
Incidentally my older son is 42 now and still isn’t very good with a knife and fork ?, but he was diagnosed with ASD and dyspraxia as a young adult.
Its easy to judge from afar but things aren’t always like they look on the surface.

growstuff I wish babies did come with a manual, each of our five were different, different needs, reached milestones at different times etc.

We made mistakes along the way, not proud to admit it, but not ashamed either.

My mother still claims to this day my sister and I could read and write at 1.5 year old - obviously not true

She was comparing the progress with her gc and how delayed they were compared to us

i have a variety of thoughts, as I was a very bright child who could not wait to go to school and could count quite well and read simple things before I started school when I was 4 in the july and went to school in the september.always a bookworm and could amuse myself in many ways, so when we did some task and I finished before others I was allowed to carry on with some other task. we are all maths minded in our family and I found counting and such things enjoyable and easy but of course as others have said , we have had stories read to us every night, walking into town with my little sister in a pushchair and me walking by her side , my mother would point out things, suggest counting games , looking for birds , how many cats had we seen what colours etc , were there more or less than yesterday, how many tulips had got flowers on them today etc etc. Playing with small amounts of money on the table , making flower heads of a sixpence or threepence in the middle and pennies round the edge. - getting the duraglit out to polish our pennies to be a lovely orangey colour. Going through mums lovely soft chamais leather button bag sharing and counting the various buttons to make pictures etc. So I was allowed to carry on learning on my own and got very absorbed in things and it is not true that children cannot concentrate for a length of time . If they have chosen the subject they can go on all morning if allowed. So moving on I have a degree and a postgraduate and have taught in an international school in Portugal - there you more or less had to individually plan work for children as they were often diplomats families so they have had to move in the middle of terms and can have two lots of decimals and no fraction etcs and the same with things like history.The plus side was that having actually travelled a lot these children understood the ideas of other countries, different ways of life not just one acceptable one, much less rigid and by jiminy the could beat a money exchange place in their pocket money level and could swap and buy and sell in various currencies at one time!! Then later I worked in a Montesorri in Damascus and found it fascinating. The rules there are the child chooses their interest and you help where necessary so they are the leaders for every day. Another child may join them if the first child agrees but it is the first childs option. We show carefully how to pick up and put down things carefully, and which fingers to use etc. This strengthens the fingers and is the basis of writing with a pen or pencil later on. It was absolutely an eye opener to see how this worked. the child was expected to return whatever they used to its place when they had finished with it but not by orders from the adults. I can tell you of amazing things where one child got very involved with lovely tactile wooden shapes so squares and triangles and ball shape etc. She spent two and a half days doing many many things with them, making patterns, counting up specific shapes drawing round them , all sorts of interesting things and it was exciting to just see what she would do next. On the third day she started grouping shapes in a different way seeing what could make a pattern with the shapes and then suddenly lifted her head went and got the box and put all the shapes back in and went off to read something. This child was 4 -1/2 years old and I could see so much of my own fascination with things but I was not allowed to sty with one thing for such a long time as a child. Montessori did so well with handicapped children she then questioned why children without handicaps were not doing better and this child led scheme was what she went for. It was quite hard for me to learn how to stand back and only offer help when required , not doing any ordering or directing. Of course there were children who found it difficult to even settle to one task, but given time they then did start to self direct and I think it is the most positive attitude to learn to be a self starter. to want to find out something is the best incentive to keep going and not give up On a totally different scheme when I was abroad some families who were moving very often chose the french system where if it was 4th July and the subject was english they would be on page 12 of book 2 in every french school. the plus is that there is no overlap and children can continue a set pattern, but to me it is far too rigid and does not allow for the child who wants to go on or the child that needs extra help. Every child is different of course and again it counts where in the hierachy of a family they are. As an eldest I was used to working out safe things for my sister besides doing things I wanted to, she benefitted from seeing me at school and understood before she went there what it would be like and was quite happy to just go into class the first day and hardly said goodbye to my mother. all sorts of things can happen, illness or family upsets or myriad other things so just using the rigid age - right you are 5 ,- so today you go to school is not helpful. I do not say I have answers but if there was enough checked volunteers who could be used in class under the teachers advice to give those children that need a little bit of extra help, so the only child could be quite fearful, not having had chance to mix and have some rough and tumble. to me flexibilty is the name of the game and this lunatic government who denies help with one hand and demands exam results affecting the money that a school will receive are totally wrong. we want children who skip to school because they enjoy it so much . I will finish with one of the loveliest compliments I received. I was at this time teaching in my first year being supervised. As I say all my family are good at maths and I had a plan for the days maths but I noticed a childs birthday was a palandromic number. I showed the class , how you could read it back and forward and it was the same both ways. so this led to a great deal of interest in finding out any other palindromic numbers and they checked each other and went home to ask their parents and grannies etc etc. a young woman came to collect her little girl and said what have you done in sums today to received the answer gaily that we didnt do any maths that day we just played all the time. !! Black looks from the mother but I was so thrilled with it. I also taught a fun thing for a child of about 6 who has difficulty in maths. If you multiply something by 11 you can write out with a space between so you have 2 3 If they add the two together it will make 5 and put that in the middle and that is the answer. Of course it only works up to addition of 9 but it was something you could demonstrate and let them practise so that they became very easy with it and then you deliberately ask the question in class and the boy who rarely answers puts his hand up and is right!! It boosts his morale, makes the other children look again and he is now eager to try any more tricks. The tricks dont matter it is letting him relax to be able to learn without putting up those dreadful shutters of "I cant do maths" self fufilling words! Now I do think it is a shame that the parents are more interested in their phones without talking and looking at things with their children but overall I do think forcing children to do things at a set time chosen by their birthdays is not the best way to go ahead. It would seem to be better to check if a child can do some basic things like sipping up clothes and changing shoes on their own so that they feel more positive about going.

Children start at 6 in France.
However, they go to "maternelle" from 3 to 6 where they learn social skills, dexterity, pre-reading and writing, time organisation, etc.

silverlining48

Children in Europe start school
at 7. Yes they have heavily subsidised kindergarten etc but surely 4 is far too young.

agree. they don't actually have to start until after they are 5, like i did, and that seemed too soon for me.
maybe if they could go to an optional free playschool-type environment until 7, then start regular learning type school, it would be better.
but then i think there ought to be a national care service, run along similar lines to nhs, and financed through general taxation; so i might as well whistle.

Remembering primary school in Surrey, I couldn’t wait to go. I couldn’t wait to start. My mother was saddened when I skipped along on to school on my first day.

Both my boys skipped kindergarten when they moved up from Montessori school (two and a half hours weekdays).
The only other child to do so was the Japanese girl I took home after nursery so that she could learn to speak English clearly.
If parents or caregivers bother to make fun of learning and give of their time to read and work with little ones they will be more than ready for school when the time comes.
I believe it is laziness on the part of parents which results in their children being unable to reach normal milestones.

My youngest daughter started full-time at a private prep school just before her 4th birthday. Even I was surprised that following an assessment day they said she was ready. She went in the first day without a backwards glance. She has always been this way very cool, calm and collected. Her daughter and myself are not built in this way. Despite spending almost 2 years of the past 3 years since she started working for a cyber security firm they have asked if she will apply for a management post - she’s not even back at work yet. I wish I had her confidence.

GD is due to start state primary school in September. She will be 4 only 2 days beforehand. I just hope she’ll be ready but not too sure especially as she still has a nap in the afternoon, the only one in her nursery group to do so. It very much depends on the child.

On maternity leave I should have said.

Frankly it’s the parents job not teachers to parent and these jobs described are basic parenting tasks that parents should be teaching their children. Parenting is an incredibly important and hard job and stressful juggling working outside the home too. I’ve always believed in the saying “it takes a village to raise a child” but that doesn’t abdicate the primary responsibility being the parents! I despair when I see a child in a pushchair with it’s own phone playing Pepper Pig on repeat whilst it’s parent is pushing but emotionally elsewhere on their own device! Such lost opportunities for teaching language and social skills, sparking interest in the locality and environment as they simply go from A to B! Actually those old fashioned huge prams had the right idea when the child faced the caregiver so they could chat away!!
I’ve no objection to parents relaxing of an evening with the tv or games machines but daytimes are a full time job with the child who should be gently taught through every interaction during the day. Unless a child has a medical condition or disability I don’t think there’s any excuse for a child to go to school in nappy’s! Simply lazy parenting in my view to not take time to teach and support the child to gain that skill.
Frankly teachers have a hard enough job without having to dress a class of 30 kids after PE or a visit to the toilet. Of course it’s faster to do it yourself but simply doesn’t empower the child to learn to be more independent. Not teaching a child the basics of holding and using a knife and fork, or a pencil, means teachers waste valuable teaching time doing these parenting tasks when they should be teaching letter formation and recognition etc. If parents are struggling with these things then surely it’s also our duty as grandparents, Aunts/Uncles (or great) to step up and support the child/family further by giving our time and attention to these fairly simple tasks to start with but building a key figure role in the child’s life going forward? As I mentioned earlier, yes it’s primarily a parent’s job to parent their child (or else why bother to have them) but it “takes a village to raise a child”, especially a well rounded and adequately supported one. None of us should abdicate such a responsibility and a child suffer as a result, and who knows what remarkable ongoing bond could be forged!

Frogs your nearly-3 year old grandson sounds fine!
If he enjoys climbing on the play equipment in the park you can reassure yourself that anything and everything he does that strengthens his arm, hand and finger muscles is a good pre-writing exercise.
Playdough is a similar good exercise for strengthening those important muscles.
All the running around and climbing will also help develop his core body muscles. Without a strong core, children literally cannot sit still, they have to fidget to keep their balance. Boys develop this later than girls: is it any wonder some of them can't "sit still nicely" at school and are often in trouble?
There's a lot more to a child becoming "school ready" than we realise sometimes.

Actually, most kids go to preschool, and almost all kids go to kindergarten, which requires age 5 attained. First grade starts at age 6 attained. Of course, there are some anomalies, but these are the basic ages. US Gran

We have lived through some really difficult times during the past two years and I think it is going to be more stressful for everybody. People have had such different experiences and our previous lives have been changed. This has impacted on children, in ways that we may not even realise. So many families do not have support or the extended network to rely on, and just have to get by as best they can.

Thanks V3ra - I hope so, and I’ll get some Playdough in ?