Give me a child until he is 7 . . .

My mother was the prime influence on family principles but we live in military family quarters mainly, so discipline was pretty universal, as a child the rules were there you obeyed them.

I don’t recall teachers having influence over me beyond good behavior and manners (lacking today). Having given up trying to instill good behavior with pupils, are teachers attempting to correct the appalling standards set by some parents.

Some of the examples on this thread are a bit ridiculous, as for the example of Father Christmas, it rather depends on the age of the children and the context doesn't it? One of the things studied in Literacy is myths and legends. If a child was to ask a question about FC in this context should a teacher lie and say he is real or admit he is a myth with some basis in a real person?

Most children at school tell me he is not real by KS2

Honestly I think a lot of the time they keep it up so they don't disappoint their parents and they don't want to risk less presents lol

I remember doing that . I wasn’t 100% sure, and my mum said that some people didn’t believe in him (which I knew) but that he only came to children who did believe. I regained my faith for another year or two, until my sister was old enough to know the truth too.

Some children get a wider view of the world at their own dinner table.
I have pretty strong views on lots of things that my children have been encouraged to question (and have in some cases totally gone the other way). I'm happy that i see them as thinking adults now and hope and believe they are creating the same open debate conditions with their families.

I was lucky as i had lots of time with my growing family.

Ours were told that Santa was a good man who had lived a long time ago,he liked to make people happy .Now there are thousands of people who carry on his work and leaving presents is one way they do it .BUT not everyone gets the same amount of presents so dont rub your friends noses in it that you got a dolls house AND lots of other things .

Regarding religious schools ,in my opinion and experience theres no school that doesn't punt some religion .
At the convent I went to at least they were honest that the ethos was Catholic and that certain standards were to be expected .
When my children went to what my FIL insisted on calling a non denominational school and the rest of us called protestant there were weekly visits from a Ch of Scotland minister.That wasn't an issue because hes a family friend BUT it wasn't what we wanted and I knew nothing about the CH of Scotland .

The vegan issue - if it arose, would be followed by discussions in class about different beliefs, points of view and unkindness to others. Harm done by spoken words and accusations lasts long into life.

The path of the discussions would depend on the age of the children.
I would be seriously concerned if I thought parents of primary children were teaching their children to use that vocabulary. Where would it stop?
Abortion? A parent of a child I teach has just lost her baby. The child is upset that they will no longer have a baby brother or sister. Would you allow children who may not understand the difference between miscarriage and abortion to parrot their parents’ views on abortion in class?
What would you do faced with children who are telling classmates from same sex marriages that their parents were evil or even just wrong?

Interesting thread Doodledog which I've just found.

NotSpaghetti thanks for that link. Of course, on the subject of climate change the vast majority will be going with the accepted science, and agreeing that climate change is being accelerated by human actions. I did though find the concerns of the climate change denier parents very troubling. They felt they had to tell their children to just go along with the teaching, parrot it back in course work or exams, and not express any form of dissent, for fear of repercussions. That's not a healthy lesson for a child to learn.

paddyann54

Ours were told that Santa was a good man who had lived a long time ago,he liked to make people happy .Now there are thousands of people who carry on his work and leaving presents is one way they do it .BUT not everyone gets the same amount of presents so dont rub your friends noses in it that you got a dolls house AND lots of other things .

Regarding religious schools ,in my opinion and experience theres no school that doesn't punt some religion .
At the convent I went to at least they were honest that the ethos was Catholic and that certain standards were to be expected .
When my children went to what my FIL insisted on calling a non denominational school and the rest of us called protestant there were weekly visits from a Ch of Scotland minister.That wasn't an issue because hes a family friend BUT it wasn't what we wanted and I knew nothing about the CH of Scotland .

I worked in a school that had once been closely linked with the village parish church. We did have services in the church usually about twice a year-Christmas and harvest festival. However Thursday was "Visitor's Assembly Day" and we had people from every religion and culture come in to talk to the children. Some of them were very interesting and informative. I don't think we punted any religion really.

Mine were at a state primary. The teachers were (on the surface at least) not interested in pushing religion, but the Head was pretty fundamentalist and clearly saw it as her duty to get the children into church. They did learn about other religions though, and on the whole it was pretty balanced.

Rosie51

Interesting thread Doodledog which I've just found.

NotSpaghetti thanks for that link. Of course, on the subject of climate change the vast majority will be going with the accepted science, and agreeing that climate change is being accelerated by human actions. I did though find the concerns of the climate change denier parents very troubling. They felt they had to tell their children to just go along with the teaching, parrot it back in course work or exams, and not express any form of dissent, for fear of repercussions. That's not a healthy lesson for a child to learn.

Yes, I felt that too. But I also found it interesting that the child seemed happy to keep two ideas in parallel and didn't find that stressful.

It must be difficult at times. Daft example, but teachers can’t be expected to go along with it if parents tell their children that giraffes live underground and whales can fly. It’s not fair to the kids. It’s when things stray into belief territory that I worry.

Teachers quite often have to deal with conflicting views from home and the school ethos. So children may have parents with right wing racist views who think England is for the English. The school teaches consideration, acceptance and equality and hopes that some of it is remembered.

This is a ‘Father Christmas isn’t real’ news story from some years ago. I’m pretty sure there was another, three or four years ago, but I can’t find that one. Same principle applies though.

And a link would help.

www.theguardian.com/education/2008/dec/12/schools-christmas

Doodledog

It must be difficult at times. Daft example, but teachers can’t be expected to go along with it if parents tell their children that giraffes live underground and whales can fly. It’s not fair to the kids. It’s when things stray into belief territory that I worry.

I agree that some things have to be corrected but I'd hope it would be done in a kind way. It was the idea that a child should need to be instructed to keep quiet and pretend to agree to avoid a backlash that concerns me. Scientific fact is one thing, theories and beliefs are another. Teachers are a cross section of people just like in any other job, some of them are going to promote their own beliefs whether consciously or not. I don't buy the perfection claimed for them by some. Some adults deny basic proven science when it clashes with their beliefs. I'd not want a child in my family exposed to those beliefs and not feel safe to challenge them.

No, I know what you mean, Rosie. Oddly, I'm less concerned about the occasional teacher with 'unusual' beliefs, as parents can usually counter those pretty easily, or complain to the Head/governors if there is a serious issue.

I'm more bothered by policies that must be taught, and ones that arise from 'collaboration with outside agencies' bother me the most. Nobody is going to object to anti-racist policies or teaching about religious diversity - or indeed any sort of 'some people believe' cultural differences - and it's arguable that anyone who does object should be overruled.

When it comes to teaching that dinosaurs were there in the Garden of Eden, or that people can choose between a hundred genders, however, (with no caveats about these things being belief systems that are far from universally held), then I feel that parents should be consulted, and have the option to remove their children from any classes where they are taught, and given lessons on evolution or biology instead. It's not ideal, as it could be divisive if not handled tactfully, but schools should not be indoctrinating kids with false information.

The jury's out here on the Santa issue. I can see that expecting a teacher to go along with that whilst objecting to other things I see as myths is probably hypocritical, but we bought into it and it gave the children a lot of pleasure, and nowadays it probably counts as a tradition. Maybe the topic should be avoided, (as it probably already is), and maybe so should the other controversial issues, so that school can concentrate on teaching topics that are more relevant to more children. But that could result in Gradgrindian teaching of facts, facts, facts, and I wouldn't like that either.

I told you I hadn't sorted out my own thoughts . I'm going round in circles, and am not much further forward than I was at the start.

Indoctrination of any sort is dubious. I think religious education should be banned in all primary education. My father was sent to Sunday school (three sessions each day! and had the attendance prizes to prove it) but fortunately he had an independence of mind that rejected the whole thing, fortunately for me.

I think Ignatius Loyola was wrong . You have only got to look at the complete change in opinionss on anything and everything now compared with our childhoods, to see that whatever a child is taught at home and at school, they have no problems about changing their opions and values when they reach adulthood.

I think parents and schools should have a clear set of views and standards that they teach children, so that children have something to protest and argue against.

As a child I was a hard critic of the adults in my life and was more than ready to find them wanting. As a result it made me think about my own values and realise that I wasn't always right either. I am sure my children benefitted from having parents with clear values who were willing to discuss them. IT helped them form their values, not necessarily the same as mine and they have grown up to be principled adults.

Violetsky, even if you are legally permitted to do so, what would be the point of telling a child that keeping an elephant in the garage and a giraffe in the bathroom is illegal (using your example as an illustration of information that a child is not in a position to fully comprehend or do anything with).

Having taught in schools where we desperately tried to teach peaceful means of resolving disputes, only to watch two of the mothers stand holding their sons' coats whilst they resolved an issue in the time honoured and accepted method of fighting it out, I very much doubt that our education system successfully achieves anything in the way of conversion. Local habits and the environment play a much more significant part. And I couldn't really blame the mothers if my DS had been going to frequent the local pub (where the children informed me a man had taken a snooker cue to another one, one night) I think I might have wanted them to be able to fight.
Schools attempt to. teach fairness, peace and equality. It doesn't necessarily take.

My parents had very little contact with the schools I attended except when something went drastically wrong. My father certainly was not going to take time off work to visit a school! Working class parents in those days did not argue with teachers who were figures of authority in the community. If the teacher said so then it must be so!

On one occasion I was bullied by a teacher into admitting I had done something when it was another child (much prettier than I). The only person who really had my back was my grandmother. She wanted to get her lawyer onto the matter but my parents prohibited it.

All too often I was told to tough it out when things went wrong. When I was at secondary school and being hit by a bigger boy my father told me I had to "stand up for myself" and taught me how to box. I broke the boys nose next time he hit me. But I was cunning enough not to admit that I had deliberately gone for his nose. "It was just a lucky punch miss."

The most important thing I learned about school was that it wasn't enought to be quiet and meek. The kids who got off with things were often the clever liars who were ready with a good excuse.

I went to a little church village school and then on to a very traditional girls school where the school song included the words 'you are mine to shape and fashion til you come to glorious end.. this combined with a very strict low church homelife.... as a result I became a buddhist and sent my son to a Steiner school where the parents had a huge say in the schooling.. to the point of interference possibly..

but in retrospect I believe they ALL endeavoured to produce kind, useful and independent thinking members of society

Those were the bad old days for some biglouis, but things have moved on and hopefully now little children don’t learn to cope by being cunning liars, successful only if they can throw their weight around.

These days, hopefully, a school can play a major part in elevating a child above its disadvantages, and can work with parents towards a positive outcome for the child.

Ideally, too, a good school environment would provide children with the ability to evaluate information and influences they are exposed to, and not passively accept things at face value.

Yes, children will inevitably be exposed to “a range of views”, that’s no bad thing, but schools and parents have a responsibility between them to equip them to start to evaluate views and ideas, and to build on that skill. Critical thinking can’t start early enough.

As we live in such a multicultural society I would like to see practical aspects taught like being able to identify a predator/narcissist, how to keep yourself safe, and how to avoid people who are destructive to ones well being i.e. not hanging out with people who do bad things that hurt one. I am not sure that main stream religious values play such a role nowadays but the good old fashioned values of rock up on time, do the job properly, stop the endless chatting in the work place about rubbish and just get on with the job, check things before you present them to someone else, make sure as a parent you are there and not off pursuing your own interests, the whole family enculturating the child into a strong, loving, protected and safe environment, encouraging the love of knowledge and also practical skills like getting the kids to help on tasks from knitting to gardening etc so they are useful individuals in times of need, teaching them how to face adversity and stick to their values when challenged.