Give me a child until he is 7 . . .

I had a secular education - state primary schools followed by direct grant secondary. I wasn't aware of being "taught" values, although I expect I absorbed them. The demographic of both schools was predominately white and lower/middle class. There was a black boy, who was the son of an African academic at Liverpool University, and a girl whose father was Polish and had an exotic-sounding surname. At secondary school, there were some Jewish girls, who didn't attend the religious part of assemblies. I remember being interested in their backgrounds and I guess they were my first experience that a world existed outside my own narrow circle.

From my own experience of being a state school teacher, I think that reports that education today is somehow "political" is grossly exaggerated, although I think there is generally more awareness of different cultures in the community as a whole.

We did have General Studies in the sixth form, when we discussed issues I had never really considered before, such as ethics, different cultures and political systems, etc. General Studies had a high profile at the school and with hindsight was the most interesting part of my education. At the time, when applicants for university were interviewed, it was considered a positive that young people could argue constructively - I'm not sure how applicants with very one-sided views got on.

In addition if I had insisted on my children not attending a 'religious' school, they would have had to go to school (primary age) out of my local area. So I am not sure how much choice there is for parents in terms of opting out of some values that they may not agree with.

Yes, I guess that National events are difficult to ignore. I doubt it will have be dealt with in the way it would have been 50 years ago, though. I vaguely remember Commonwealth Day being celebrated at school, but not what happened.

I am not sure its as simple as people think, I work in early years and at the moment pretty much every school/nursery has activities relating to the Jubilee. I am not for one moment saying they shouldnt and maybe you could argue that is just reflecting a moment in history but there is not much escape from it.

Sorry - that was to Chewbacca.

I disagree strongly with cancel culture. I believe in free speech, and think that students are perfectly capable of listening to something and arguing with it in Q&As.

I don't approve of the idea that they are delicate flowers who have to be protected from 'difficult ideas'. They are the next generation of influencers (not in the Instagram sense ?) and if they can't cope with hearing anything that hasn't been pre-vetted and sanitised, it gives little hope for the future. The question that always needs to be asked is who is doing the vetting and sanitising, and why?

I am not sure what you are asking of me Doodledog I have explained school approach to childrens rights, protected characteristics and expected approach to specific topics which includes history

Not sure how my comment on Transgender Barbie needs bringing to this topic, trans is just one of many protected characteristics and those are what they are as defined by legislation and safeguarding training.

The fact that education should not be assigning ones petsonal views to children, their families and those protected characteristics doesn't seem like indoctrination to me.

young adults should be able to hear different views, and argue against them if they disagree.

Where does the current "cancel culture" at universities fit in with that though? I'm thinking specifically of various speakers who have been scheduled to speak at some universities but who have then been told by student unions that they don't want to hear what they have to say.

That was why there was an intervention Doodledog, she was 'advised' to take another look at my essay and the mark she'd given (all of this before I received it back) and did improve my grade.

I agree that young adults and children benefit from hearing different points of view and being able to consider another perspective, providing all sides of the 'argument' are presented fairly.

I hope not paddyann54 for our sake, I want us to stay together.
In your shoes though, I would feel the same as you.

I love cheese Scotland has always had its own system for education,its own church ,its own language its own LAW .
It was a seperate country for many centuries ,our flag was first flown in the 9th century.
Hopefully we'll be a seperate country again,soon .

Sorry - cross-posted, Smileless.

I think it's different with students (as opposed to pupils), so long as grades are not affected if someone disagrees with the marker's point of view. If a lecturer lets personal opinion influence their marking they deserve to be pulled up on it. Otherwise, though, I think it's fine for them to express opinions - young adults should be able to hear different views, and argue against them if they disagree.

VioletSky

doodledog my comment on this thread doesn't contain the word "trans" at all.

I am aware of that, but as I said, it was your comment on the other one that inspired this one, so I wondered if there were other topics which matched.

I loved the 7 Up series, silverlining. It is interesting to see the way attitudes have changed, and how the children have adapted to changes in their lives. It would be a shame if the programme ended, as it's not often that there is a chance to carry out such a far-reaching longitudinal study, and it covers such a range of areas, both geographical and sociological.

I wasn't sure if the ham sandwich example worked, Ilovecheese, but it does throw up how values can contradict one another. I agree that there are huge differences between the style of education I had and those of my children. I don't know if the old-fashioned ways were more or less deliberately designed to promulgate 'values', really. I don't think that teachers got so involved in the lives of the children as they do now (sometimes it seems that there is an element of social work in the role of a teacher), but maybe I just didn't notice because I was a child and not in need of intervention.

Values were taught, but explicitly, in the form of religious assembly (non-religious school) and compulsory RE, but we didn't have Personal and Social Education, or even General Studies, so on the whole subjects were taught separately and teachers came in, taught and left (or so it seemed to me).

An interesting and complex issue Doodledog.

It's a fine line to have to walk in today's multi cultural society when it comes to what's being taught in schools today and must have been far simpler in days gone by.

Schools do need to work along side parents as there are the inevitable 'clashes' depending on a child's cultural and/or religious family back ground. Parents should not abdicate their parental responsibilities of child rearing to the school and schools should be aware of, and willing to accommodate within reason, parents wishes.

I agree that the 'ham sandwich problem' is an interesting example. The vegan child, entitled to his/her opinion and right to express it, needs to learn to do so in an acceptable way. Telling a meat eating child they're a murderer doesn't fall into this category, so being educated in how to express ones opinion in a measured and respectful way is needed and not just from the school, but from parents and the wider family.

Teachers need to put their personal opinions to one side as much as possible. A meat eating teacher and a vegan teacher should be able to approach this particular issue in a balanced way, regardless of their personal feelings.

A good teacher wont push their personal views but that's not to say that it wont and doesn't happen. As a very mature student with the OU, one of my tutors was pulled up by the adjudicator for my course for doing precisely that.

The education that Vioetsky describes is current practise. The education that those of an older generation received was some time ago, I recognise some of what Terribull* described, I would hope that things are different now, but I don't know.
The ham sandwich problem is interesting.

I have watched the TV series 7 Up which began around 1956 with Michael Apted. It begins with the Give me a child until he is 7 and I will give you the man, or words to that effect.
I started watching this in the early 80s and have followed it ever since. The children from all walks of life are now in their 60s and have been interviewed every 7 years since, so for more than 50 years, and it has been fascinating.

Michael Apted sadly died not long ago so not sure whether it will be continued but it is well worth watching.

doodledog my comment on this thread doesn't contain the word "trans" at all.

Those values sound laudable, but they are rather vague. What happens when individual liberty gets in the way of tolerance, or tolerance for someone's individual liberty conflicts with respect for someone else's?

My vegan example is still not great, but if a child is calling another one a murderer for having a ham sandwich, does he have a right to tolerance of his views, or does he have to respect the individual liberty of the meat-eating child?

It was your comment on the trans thread, VS that it was a good job that education was able to counteract the views of parents that inspired this one. I really don't want this one to become another rehash of the trans arguments, so is there another example from your experience where 'education' counters parental views, or is it just on that issue?

I am baffled by this honestly. Many know I work in primary education.

Schools teach our British Values:

Individual Liberty
Tolerance
Respect.

Children have rights protected by the childrens act, they are taught those rights.

Children have protected characteristics under the equality act, everything is done to ensure those characteristics are indeed protected within the education system. Of course that may mean educating children that there is nothing wrong with having a protected characteristic and we do not treat others with protected characteristics unkindly.

Education in general is a hollistic approach, children are taught that there is always more to learn about theselves, each other and the wider world around them.

If you believe teachers push their views on any topic you are mistaken. Any topic is approached in a way that ensures children look at it from all angles and they are actively encouraged to form their own opinions based on what is known about a particuar subject and their own thoughts and ideas.

For example, we may talk about zoos. A staff member may be very anti keeping animals in captivity, there will be children who have enjoyed a zoo visit, there are even school trips to such places. As long as the activity does not break any laws then of course we are never going to tell a child something is wrong or bad no matter our own personal views. We simply discuss the pros and cons of any situation, the wider impacts, what we could change, wbat wethink worls well etc.

We teach children how to be open minded and how to formulate their own opinions for themselves. That is the very opposite of indoctrination.

However as I have already mentioned, we do have laws and legislation so if a child tells us they have an elephant in the garage and a giraffe in the bathroom then we are allowed to say that that is not legal in this country.

It can be other children who can be a problem because of what they have been taught at home.
I remember my GS aged about six in tears because his best friend had told him that because he hadn't been christened he would burn in hell.
Children are influenced by other children too

I think it's imperative that children aren't indoctrinated in any way. I think I was, particularly at that young age. I went to a catholic school where at that time it appeared to me they had a free rein to feed their pupils, hook line and sinker all manner of untruths. For example, in preparation for making our Holy Communion age 7, a totally batshit weird nun who was in charge of instructing us in the procedure told us if our teeth made contact with the host, we would be biting Jesus' legs off! Quite honestly I believed that for ages until I was old enough to acquire some rationality, to be fair even my catholic parents, whilst not wishing to contradict this person, parents didn't argue with teachers then, did say, "she was probably having a joke" No! they didn't do humour all of this was delivered with a poker face. In retrospect I think there are certain people who shouldn't be around children.

We weren't taught anything about race, although a fair proportion of the pupils at my junior school were of Irish or to a lesser extent Mediterranean extraction, I'm a mix of both and English. At my convent school it was slightly different, we had fee payers who tended to be non catholic but more traditionally English, the Irish nuns appeared to strangely favour them, no doubt because they were a source of income. They often said this about the more moneyed pupils "so and so has breeding" whatever that was supposed to mean, as if she, the girl referred to was some sort of thoroughbred race horse, and we were just common and garden cart horses, it gave me a subliminal sense of a pecking order. Although they weren't adverse to simultaneously bad mouthing them when they filed out of the class if we, the catholic element all had to go up to the chapel for mass by saying when they were safely out of earshot "lets pray for their protestant souls so they don't suffer eternal damnation" It was a strange world I inhabited I realise I was imbued with the notion catholics = good and non catholic encompassing every other faith = not good and really, really bad if they were protestants because of what they did to u!. Although they were rather silent on what catholics inflicted on just about every other faith being all powerful entity they were at one time. It was only when I went out in the world I realised how very narrow the parameter were in my schools. I remember when my own children were going through their non denominational senior school being asked to write an essay on the difference between a fact and an opinion and how propaganda shaped history, which made me ponder at the time how indoctrinated I was at their age in that we weren't really expected to express an opinion on pretty much anything.

Do you mean the countries of the UK? I hadn't thought of that. Is education devolved?

Yes, education is devolved.

Our sons went to a Jesuit school, the eldest in particular has remained in close contact with the society, he attends mass at Farm Street and remains in touch with his ex Masters and peers.
The youngest went on to work with the Jesuit missions in India and Kyrgyzstan.

Their education was holistic, one spent a week caring for a severely disabled child, after undertaking intensive training, one walked Santiago de Compostela they both worked with struggling pupils from local schools mentoring them.
Their school life was one of real purpose.

The school motto “Quant je puis” has stayed with them both into adult life.

The values that were instilled into them were not ours, they were taught to question, to be kind and very importantly to always consider the consequences of their behaviour on others.

They both agree as did the then headmaster that “ he’s mine for life” was probably the true Jesuit mantra.

I thought it was 'I will show you the Jesuit'.

It doesn't really matter to the thread, though - the point is that things taught at school, particularly to young children - stick with them for life.

Loyalty to the Crown is a good example. I think my generation was taught that more than my children were - we sang Rule Britannia and Hearts of Oak at a young age, and certainly at primary school we were taught that many countries 'belonged to' Britain.

My O level History teacher was, with hindsight, fairly left-wing, and taught us about the Industrial Revolution, the Chartists and so on with that slant. I didn't realise at the time, and would probably have the political views I do now regardless, but he may well have had an influence.

NotSpaghetti

...^But perhaps try to keep to the values of the country is a good place to start^
Maybe, ilovecheese but does it depend on the country?

Do you mean the countries of the UK? I hadn't thought of that. Is education devolved?