We have pooled thoughts on the NHS, how about education?

What was it about this person that made them unsuitable for a Scottish University but welcomed with open arms to the English one?

volver

Yeah, I thought about that,,,

You get a place at a Scottish University if you "get the grades", so to speak.

You can't blame the Scottish Parliament for the fact that the UK Parliament has decided to charge for places south of the border.

So when you say a "lack", maybe you could elaborate where that perception comes from?

Higher Education Student Statistics UK 2020-21 show:

16.7% of Scottish domiciled full time first degree entrants to Scottish HEIs are from the 20% most deprived areas in Scotland. This is an increase of 0.3 percentage points, or 545 entrants, from 16.4% in 2019-20. A record number of students enrolled at Scottish HEIs in 2020-21: an increase from last year of 8.6% (+22,385) to 282,875.
StudentNumberChange
Scottish domiciled 180,170 (+7.9%, +13,120 since 2019-20)

www.universities-scotland.ac.uk/record-breaking-widening-access-success-highlighted-in-new-figures/

Are you doing the Edinburgh Fringe this year?
282875 places at Scottish universities
Agree?
180,170 to Scottish students
Seriously?

Volver
Your government is widening access?
How?

ronib

volver

Yeah, I thought about that,,,

You get a place at a Scottish University if you "get the grades", so to speak.

You can't blame the Scottish Parliament for the fact that the UK Parliament has decided to charge for places south of the border.

So when you say a "lack", maybe you could elaborate where that perception comes from?

Higher Education Student Statistics UK 2020-21 show:

16.7% of Scottish domiciled full time first degree entrants to Scottish HEIs are from the 20% most deprived areas in Scotland. This is an increase of 0.3 percentage points, or 545 entrants, from 16.4% in 2019-20. A record number of students enrolled at Scottish HEIs in 2020-21: an increase from last year of 8.6% (+22,385) to 282,875.
StudentNumberChange
Scottish domiciled 180,170 (+7.9%, +13,120 since 2019-20)

www.universities-scotland.ac.uk/record-breaking-widening-access-success-highlighted-in-new-figures/

Are you doing the Edinburgh Fringe this year?
282875 places at Scottish universities
Agree?
180,170 to Scottish students
Seriously?

No, I just made it up.

And got Universities Scotland to go along with me, just to wind you up.

volver

What was it about this person that made them unsuitable for a Scottish University but welcomed with open arms to the English one?

State education, very high grades ? Very talented . No courses were available as places had been given to foreign students.

Volver
Smell the coffee

State education, very high grades ? Very talented . No courses were available as places had been given to foreign students.

So they went to be a foreign student in England?

Remind me, are University courses free in Scotland, and for whom?

There are no tuition fees for Scottish domiciled students Fleurpepper.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/eligibility-for-home-fee-status-and-student-support-in-scotland/#:~:text=Students%20ordinarily%20resident%20in%20Scotland,for%20five%20years%20in%20total.

volver

^State education, very high grades ? Very talented . No courses were available as places had been given to foreign students.^

So they went to be a foreign student in England?

There was no choice but to look outside Scotland for a university place. So fees in England paid by a state educated Scottish student £9 k a year.

If only university places were free in England as well.

volver

There are no tuition fees for Scottish domiciled students Fleurpepper.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/eligibility-for-home-fee-status-and-student-support-in-scotland/#:~:text=Students%20ordinarily%20resident%20in%20Scotland,for%20five%20years%20in%20total.

Thanks this is what I thought.

Strangely enough, I know several Scottish expats who are resident abroad, who sent the children to Scottish Universities. And I did wonder if they found a loophole to access such for free?

Actually, a thought...

Were all the places at all the universities that this person was expecting to get, all "given" to foreign students? Or were there actually Scottish students who were further up the pecking order than they were?

volver

^So how do you help those "bright" but "poor" children?^

Get them to move to Scotland and go to the kind of state school I went to. (1300 pupils, most socially deprived area of the county, clever pupils encouraged, no daft initiatives based on what amounts to charity.)

Thankfully there are lots of state schools that do that, not exclusive to Scotland or Wales and NI for that matter but it's not the experience for lots of children and surely this is why we are having this discussion. You are very focused on Independent schools, my view is that the rich and privileged will continue to provide a privileged education for their children. The Sutton Trust report (if anyone bothered to read it) suggests that there's something about private education that gives even WC children a real and lasting benefit. Clearly we are never going to abolish private education so is there something we could transport into State schools or is it all about smaller classes and better sports facilities? There's quite a lot of inequality in state schools, compare the results and life chances of children who get a grammar school place or go to a good comp to those who go to a failing comp. So as we can't send all those bright poor kids to your school in Scotland, what other ideas do you have? BTW it's not all about money either, despite the Conservatives promising to change the finding formula so that it is more equal, there's still a big disparity in funding with the cities generally getting much more £ than rural areas (even without taking pupil premium into account).

Scottish students forced to attend universities not in Scotland are liable to pay tuition fees which apply to that course.

Scottish students are eligible to apply for a loan I think in the normal way.

Completely foreign students are required to pay even higher fees for Scottish university courses than English, Welsh or N. Irish students

volver

Actually, a thought...

Were all the places at all the universities that this person was expecting to get, all "given" to foreign students? Or were there actually Scottish students who were further up the pecking order than they were?

She was at the top of the pecking order being related to me!
I have no idea exactly how this situation came about but it’s a very poor situation for Scotland!

volver

Callistemon21

Then why so many private schools that prevent that happening?

In what way, exactly, do private schools prevent the availability of free education?

I'm not going to start this argument from scratch again...

Maybe somebody else has the stamina to do it.

Oh go on, please do.

I hadn't noticed a dearth of state schools locally where there are independents too.

ronib

volver

Actually, a thought...

Were all the places at all the universities that this person was expecting to get, all "given" to foreign students? Or were there actually Scottish students who were further up the pecking order than they were?

She was at the top of the pecking order being related to me!
I have no idea exactly how this situation came about but it’s a very poor situation for Scotland!

So there were other Scottish students more deserving of places but you wanted something for her that wasn't available?

Okey doke.

Wrong again

Volver you have a strange concept of deserving. You have failed to understand the inherent injustice and failure of the Scottish government to educate its own students. 100k plus places allocated to non Scots. What do you not understand?

"Shirley-Anne Somerville, the Scottish government’s education secretary, said she accepted all 12 of the OECD’s recommendations, which follow years of mounting criticism about the Scottish National party’s handling of education."
The above extract is taken from the Guardian. I know little about Scotland's system but perhaps it's not as good as it should be, rather like England and Wales.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jun/21/scottish-education-system-to-be-overhauled-after-damning-oecd-report

Callistemon21

^It's a basic belief, at least where I come from, that education should be free and available to those who would benefit from it.^
It is in Wales, and England too I believe.

Then why so many private schools that prevent that happening?

Please could you explain why the presence of private schools prevents other pupils having a free education.

I'm having difficulty comprehending your sentence.
I should blame my state education.

As has been pointed out to me, it doesn’t matter at all if a commentator on social media is deliberately hostile or antagonistic because other people will have access to both sides of the argument and you are really talking to them. Truth will out.

ronib

Volver you have a strange concept of deserving. You have failed to understand the inherent injustice and failure of the Scottish government to educate its own students. 100k plus places allocated to non Scots. What do you not understand?

There were 3,000 students at my alma mater back in the Stone Age when I was a student. Now there are 15,000. So lets assume that the proportion of Scots to non-Scots is the same for that Uni as it is for the whole country. That would mean that 6,400 students there are Scots. So even if all 3,000 students back then were Scots - and I assure you they were not - then at last twice as many Scots are getting the benefit of a University education there than there used to be.

So, they have to be paid for somehow. Charge tuition fees? Against the Scottish principles of education. The Government pays? Definitely, the best option. Raise some of the money by charging "foreigners". Sounds fair enough to me.

Lots of people used not to get the education they wanted to get in Scotland, and many people could have benefitted from it. That number is smaller now. Those who I know who missed out back then didn't complain about the "foreigners" getting their opportunities.

The Scottish higher education system operates a cap on the number of Scottish students allowed on any particular degree course.