We have pooled thoughts on the NHS, how about education?

Callistemon21

volver

I just can't comprehend anybody thinking that a good education is comparable with a fancy holiday and a pony. I just can't comprehend why somebody would think like that. Its beyond bizarre.

No-one does - it's just personal choice of how to spend wealth.

Like owning a second home.
When many people can't afford one.

No comparison, as said, Nonsense is the one word that makes sense, no need for more.

If people want to spend their 'wealth' on education, or second homes- they should NOT exempt to be tax exempt. Simple.

volver

I just can't comprehend anybody thinking that a good education is comparable with a fancy holiday and a pony. I just can't comprehend why somebody would think like that. Its beyond bizarre.

Only to people who think they are the only ones whose opinion can be right.

By the way FP is there something you can take for the "nonsense" blockage or shall we send you extra words.

Fleurpepper

volver

I just can't comprehend anybody thinking that a good education is comparable with a fancy holiday and a pony. I just can't comprehend why somebody would think like that. Its beyond bizarre.

Yes, as said, nonsense.

Most of us are not taking about banning private schools (not immediately anyhow) - but about getting rid of tax exemption.

Sudden reversal by "most" then Fleurpepper. Certainly the most vocal have been shouting the odds about banning them.

Most of us are not taking about banning private schools (not immediately anyhow) - but about getting rid of tax exemption.

I think some on here will not agree, they want rid of private schools asap.

And I don't disagree with you about the tax position.
Just as I think anyone who owns a second home should not be exempt from paying full Council tax on both homes, with which you agreed.
🙂

volver

I just can't comprehend anybody thinking that a good education is comparable with a fancy holiday and a pony. I just can't comprehend why somebody would think like that. Its beyond bizarre.

No-one does - it's just personal choice of how to spend wealth.

Like owning a second home.
When many people can't afford one.

volver

I just can't comprehend anybody thinking that a good education is comparable with a fancy holiday and a pony. I just can't comprehend why somebody would think like that. Its beyond bizarre.

Yes, as said, nonsense.

Most of us are not taking about banning private schools (not immediately anyhow) - but about getting rid of tax exemption.

Mind you, we're all leftie extremists up here...

Glorianny

Can I ask anyone connected to an academy how many children their school excludes in any year and what happens to those children?

eachother.org.uk/11-facts-you-should-know-about-school-exclusions/
The school where I was COG never excluded any child, I do have knowledge of another child who was permanently excluded by an academy school and was found another place at an academy school following a short spell at a PRU and an unsuccessful IRP. However, I did find the above report which doesn't seem to link exclusion with academisation although it's fair to say that exclusions have risen and as 80% of sec schools are now academies it might be linked. What is interesting is that the majority of exclusions are from just 10% of the schools, so 90% of schools manage to keep their students! It's an informative read if you are interested.

This is just a small coterie of those (now I must be careful with this) with views further to the left than the majority.

As opposed to slightly to the right of Atilla the Hun?

(That's an Evita reference, just to be clear)

I just can't comprehend anybody thinking that a good education is comparable with a fancy holiday and a pony. I just can't comprehend why somebody would think like that. Its beyond bizarre.

Callistemon21

^The comparison is nonsensical^

I have to disagree.

People who have more money than they require for a basic, decent standard of living are entitled to spend it as they wish, imo, whether that be expensive holidays, schooling for their children, a second home, ponies, a large house, however they wish.

I don't think the country would agree to the nationalisation of education which is what is being suggested. This is just a small coterie of those (now I must be careful with this) with views further to the left than the majority.

(I bet we get "nonsense' again. Fleurpepper seems stuck on it).

Growstuff, as you say- very simple, end of!

So what about the parents who don't have a spare £15,000pa? Is it just tough luck ?

Yes, it's tough that I can't afford a second home in a lovely area of Britain at a cost of hundreds of thousands of £, pricing out locals and not paying full Council tax.
Really tough. 😥

Callistemon21

Mollygo

This is an aside, and not education, but I can’t post it in another thread as we’re not allowed to cross threads.
I’ve just read Fleurpepper’s post
Someone said that no-one should have the right to dictate how people spend their money. Well, I was always taught that freedom should be limited at the point it hurts others.
The number of holiday/second homes in the area where one GD lives means she can’t find a house they can afford. Does that mean that freedom to spend your money on second homes should be limited because it hurts others?

Yes, it would be interesting to know how many who think they know exactly how others spend their money in fact have second homes themselves.

Some parents may go without holidays and sacrifice much to pay for private education for their children because they know their local state school is not even "bog-standard".

So what about the parents who don't have a spare £15,000pa? Is it just tough luck?

If people with that kind of spare money want to spend it on education - fine - but don't expect it to be subsidised by the people who don't have the money.

The comparison is nonsensical

I have to disagree.

People who have more money than they require for a basic, decent standard of living are entitled to spend it as they wish, imo, whether that be expensive holidays, schooling for their children, a second home, ponies, a large house, however they wish.

Boarding schools don't have to be privte Callistemon. I worked for a very long time for a State Boarding School. It used to take service staff, but now takes non service staff, and foreign students too (to help fill places and pay for costs).

foxie48

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1011171/Changes_to_the_payment_process_of_schools__business_rates_-_government_consultation_response.pdf

for information: LEA maintained schools do not pay business rates, they are paid by the ESFA. Independent schools which are reg charities pay 20%.

Exactly! And where could the ESFA go, if it weren't used to pay business rates?

Callistemon21

And at least private schools are occupied, unlike second homes.

Cornish residents must despair at the empty second homes, whilst their children have no hope of finding a home and leave.

Absolute nonsense to insist on comparing the two. If areas have too many second homes, then this should be dealt with, with taxation, but also reduction and ensuring affordable homes and suitable infrastruture are provided for local families.

The comparison is nonsensical. We btw own a second home where no-one else owns one, and we do pay full Council Tax on it.

foxie48

schoolsweek.co.uk/best-paid-trust-ceos-wages-rise-fastest-but-some-rein-in-pay/

Worth reading if you are interested in academies. What isn't discussed is the top slice that each academy school hands over from it's budget. When my school joined it was less than we lost to the LEA and the support we got was infinitely better. The Head of the Secondary school continued in that role as well as taking on responsibility as CEO of the mixed MAT. Her salary was enhanced , not hugely, but she was worth every penny and she worked extremely hard. Apart from an enhanced Finance officer role, there was no other additional cost for management. Although we were in a poorly funded LA, it left money to buy in additional FT SEND teacher who worked across all 4 schools and a home school liaison worker. There was also a great many inter schools training opportunities. There are dedicated educationalists out there, in academies, state schools, independents and private schools who really care about the children they work with and want the best for them. They are not in it for the money but they do deserve to be paid properly for the work they do even if it comes from the public purse. If you do take the time to look at the article, I think some salaries are questionable but others are not and they are for the highest paid CEOs, ours was certainly not paid anything like that!

Before academies, many (mainly) secondary schools in England had already been grant-maintained then foundation school, which meant they had opted out of local authority control. There was very little financial advantage when they became academies. What academisation has done is open the door to academy chains, the directors of which have in some cases very little interest in education. The academies themselves have (in some cases) become the market for private companies. There is little evidence that they have improved overall standards in education.

Can I ask anyone connected to an academy how many children their school excludes in any year and what happens to those children?

And at least private schools are occupied, unlike second homes.

Cornish residents must despair at the empty second homes, whilst their children have no hope of finding a home and leave.

Ban all private schools? I'd rather state schools are so well funded and provided for, that most parents will not consider them

I'l agree to that.
Better to use a carrot than a stick.

But there will always be a need for private schools, especially boarding schools.

Fleurpepper

Are private clinics and hospitals exempt of tax? Do they carry charitable status?

If they are reg as charities they get 80% relief, NHS hospitals pay the full whack. However, if you think logically about it, the NHS budget comes from the govt (via our taxes) and then goes to the LA. If a private hospital or clinic is a reg charity, it is a not for profit organisation and the 20% it pays comes out of the pockets of the user. I think if we look at business rates in a different way with regard to Independent schools reg as charities, part of the school fees goes to pay the 20%. fwiw I don't think focusing on "private" education contributes much to the argument about how we can improve education for the 93% of kids who go to State schools, which is, at least for me, much more important.

I do; but that is a very simple way of looking at it. That is what the government want you to think.

The CEOs and others on these boards are making huge salaries. Why are they making these salaries? - because they are running academies and MATs. Were these huge salaries being made before academies and MATs existed? - the answer is No.

Business people are jumping on the bandwagon of academisation for a reason - and it is not because they are public spirited - it is because they can make good money out of it; money that is taken from school budgets and away from the pupils and teachers. Each academy or school in a MAT has its financial allocation top-sliced to pay the CEOs, the lawyers, the spurious advisors (and advisory businesses) who are conjured up for the purposes of making huge salaries. It is not because they care on whit about the schools of the pupils. It is because the government has handed them a money-making - many of the people running these organisations know nothing about education - they are business people who can see a good opportunity to feather their nests. Who can see the loopholes that allow them to create advisory bodies to make profits and sell their services that would once have been the role of the LA.

The last thing on their minds is the well-being of the teachers and pupils.

I have seen some of these slick glossy publicity materials that these businesses churn out and it truly is sickening in the context of schools asking PSAs to fund raise for pencils.

Every penny of the money that goes into these organisations is a penny less for education.

What I am suggesting - which is a true publicly funded education service whose aims are focussed on the pupils - is not such a radical idea. Many countries regard their education systems as a public service, not a money-making opportunity for fat cats.