Father removes 9 yr old daughter from school over sex ed lessons

Keeper1

I believe it wasn’t just teaching about their bodies and contraception. They were being taught about anal sex and given masturbation for homework

If that's the case parents should be demanding at the highest levels, why this is on the curriculum for Y4.

They should also be asking who, at the BBC, is responsible for these BBC Bitesize programmes and videos and what their own motives are.

Without knowing the details of the teaching materials used, no one of us can judge whether the father in question acted reasonably or unreasonably.

I know of one class of six year olds who were told about periods, involuntary ejaculation and given far too graphic descriptions of childbirth, plus warnings not to allow anyone to touch their genitals, which resulted, not incomprehensibly of scared children stating they never wanted to marry or have children and not allowing their mothers to wash them or supervise their washing themselves.

So if the child in question had been told the same, I understand her father completely.

If on the other hand he equates chastity with ignorance then he is barking up the wrong tree. There is nothing wrong with those of us who feel that sex before marriage is wrong bringing our children up to know that that is what we feel, but ignorance of the physical facts is not and can never be a good thing.

grandtanteJE65

Without knowing the details of the teaching materials used, no one of us can judge whether the father in question acted reasonably or unreasonably.

I know of one class of six year olds who were told about periods, involuntary ejaculation and given far too graphic descriptions of childbirth, plus warnings not to allow anyone to touch their genitals, which resulted, not incomprehensibly of scared children stating they never wanted to marry or have children and not allowing their mothers to wash them or supervise their washing themselves.

So if the child in question had been told the same, I understand her father completely.

If on the other hand he equates chastity with ignorance then he is barking up the wrong tree. There is nothing wrong with those of us who feel that sex before marriage is wrong bringing our children up to know that that is what we feel, but ignorance of the physical facts is not and can never be a good thing.

But we do know the details!

Read the article

Smileless2012

"given masturbation for homework" .

Frankly I don't believe that.

Sounds like something mentioned that then got twisted on reporting.

Whilst reminding myself that we may not have the entire story as we're relying on the good old mass media again, if even the bare bones of what is being communicated to these 9 year-olds is being accurately reported, IMO it's way out of order for children of that age.

I honestly believe that the sex education of children in schools should restrict itself to describing the reproductive act, along with some birth control education, whilst emphasising that sex should not be a casual affair.

There's so much of the more sordid stuff out there these days that the days of sitting kids down and telling them about the birds and the bees are now a distant, historic memory. Childhood innocence no longer exists as we knew it.
Nevertheless, if my child had been exposed to graphic stuff like that at school at that age I would have been horrified.

As for children "having a healthier attitude towards sex these days", oh really? I don't think that either the NSPCC or those professionally involved in child psychiatry would agree. Too many readily accessible and horrendously harmful role models available on line at the touch of a button, constantly pushing the boundaries as to what is "normal" behaviour. So much more negative pressure on young children these days, in so many ways.

Just to follow up on that - its something young children experiment with at various ages (try watching under 5's touch themselves and having to teach them its something "private")

Possibly its then mentioned as being normal, which is different altogether.

There is a great deal of pressure on young children these days - like it or not, the genie is well and truly out of the bottle in that respect. You can't simply turn a blind eye and pretend it isn't happening - because it is, and we need to equip them with the skills to deal with it in an appropriate fashion.

What I like about sex education now is that it is very focused on consent and making sure it's understood what is enjoyable.

In order that children learn enough so that they can't be taken advantage of, they need to know all the information and they need to know it should be comfortable and enjoyable not painful or scary

No more lying back and thinking of England

There are people who have ulterior motives who are pushing this agenda.
I'm all in favour of answering questions as they come up, in an age-appropriate way, and definitely believe that children should be taught about their bodies and how they will develop, but I don't know why people aren't up in arms about things like drag queens reading stories, classes about anal sex and so on being taught to young children.

Has anyone explained why these things are useful for children to know? We hear about 'inclusivity', but not in what scenario it is likely that most children will include a drag queen in their lives. I'm not talking about pantomime, or about Uncle Richard liking to drag up on Saturday nights for the karaoke, or 'living as' a woman, but about men in full drag being amongst children in somewhere like a library or school. What other scenarios can people envisage where children are likely to be in the company of caricature women in full make-up and sexualised clothing? Are any of them healthy?

Similarly, in what context are 9 year old children likely to need to know about anal sex? When they are older, they may need to be taught about the possible dangers, and about consent and the right to say no if they are uncomfortable with the idea, but at 9 surely it is better to teach about sex in a much less 'specific' manner?

Age 9?
Really?

No more lying back and thinking of England

I'm truly sorry if that was your experience, Violetsky
And surprised too.

I don't believe you'd been born in the 1960s? I may be wrong of course.
So what went wrong in the years afterwards that everything regressed to Victorian values?

Actually, I don't remember that it did 🤔

Callistemon21

Keeper1

I believe it wasn’t just teaching about their bodies and contraception. They were being taught about anal sex and given masturbation for homework

If that's the case parents should be demanding at the highest levels, why this is on the curriculum for Y4.

They should also be asking who, at the BBC, is responsible for these BBC Bitesize programmes and videos and what their own motives are.

From what I have read, and could have got it wrong, there is no prescribed curriculum as such, with this subject.

Schools are free, within certain guidelines, to teach it how they want.

Hence why, in another post, I said what used to be done as regards speak with teacher and school governors and lea, used to be the case[i think up to 3 years ago], but things have changed since then.

^What age should Sex Education be taught UK?
age 11 upwards^
Schools maintained by local authorities in England are obliged to teach Sex and Relationship Education (SRE) from age 11 upwards, and must take into account the Department for Education's (DfE) Sex and Relationship Education guidance, published in 2000.5 Apr 2019

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/relationships-and-sex-education-in-schools-whats-changing/#:~:text=Schools%20maintained%20by%20local%20authorities,Education%20guidance%2C%20published%20in%202000.

It seems this school had its own ideas about what is appropriate and when.

VioletSky

What on earth could possibly be wrong with teaching children about their own actual bodies

Nothing. Should be age appropriate, I would think. Or is it anything goes with some nowadays. Personally if I had a child hearing this in school, at that young age, I would remove them also. Why are schools teaching about specific sexual preferences anyway. How qualified are these teachers to teach this, or are stonewall dictating the remit.

Why are schools teaching about specific sexual preferences anyway. How qualified are these teachers to teach this, or are stonewall dictating the remit.

Sexual preferences are just that - preferences. I would be very uncomfortable with a teacher (or anyone) 'making sure it's understood what is enjoyable', as VS suggests. People enjoy different things, and it 'making sure that it is understood what is enjoyable' sounds horribly coercive to me.

Sex education has always been a tricky area, as parents have different ideas about what they want their children to be taught about and at what age. I think that teaching about changing bodies and about what sex is is a good thing at 9. Children, specially girls, can be going through puberty then, and they shouldn't be frightened by what is happening to their bodies. But telling them about specific practices such as anal sex is a step too far, IMO.

Information overload only leads to confusion and often distress and muddle.

It applies to any learning in this age group and any subject. We don’t teach 9 year olds Maths at University level or introduce them to Roman civilisation by an analysis of the Gallic wars.

It’s just plain bad education. So if it’s not justifiable in terms of all we know about children’s learning and understanding, why would anyone want to teach about sex in a way that they know will lead to confusion 🤔🤔🤔

Agree with your post of 15.30 Doodledog far too specific for the age group, I would have concerns too if my child was being taught in this way.

I'm very conflicted about this. I do think it is important for children to know about their bodies and bodily functions, but I also feel that it should be age appropriate and learning in detail about anal sex or even oral sex for a child under 12 or 13 isn't necessary.

My feeling is that it IS vital at a young age and throughout their lives is to understand that if anyone, whether family member or not, does anything to their bodies that they don't like or feel uncomfortable about, it is wrong. They should know that the person abusing them is lying if they say it is normal or that everyone does it or some other reason for not telling their teacher or a trusted adult. This could apply to non-sexual abuse, like pinching them, hitting them or pulling their hair.

This way they won't become over sexualised by seeing graphic images or video; they can just stay safe by not being trapped into not reporting abuse.

I also think it is important that they don't feel ashamed about masturbating, that it's normal and that many children do it. I don't think it needs to be over sexualised, just that it is normal behaviour; perhaps with some reference to where it is not acceptable, alongside maybe pooing and peeing in front of other people.

very well said choughdancer.

Sex education has always been a tricky area, as parents have different ideas about what they want their children to be taught about and at what age. I think that teaching about changing bodies and about what sex is is a good thing at 9. Children, especially girls, can be going through puberty then, and they shouldn't be frightened by what is happening to their bodies
This.

Sex education should be age-appropriate.

At that age, teaching it as part of a biology lesson is the right way to approach it, using a practical but sympathetic method for those approaching puberty. Teaching young children what many would regard as unnecessary or inappropriate sexual practices is wrong.

No more lying back and thinking of England good grief the only time I've heard that is when watching historical dramas, and not very good ones.

Although I am inclined to agree with you, choughdancer, it was something on tv that came up on during family viewing that suddenly made a relative say, "That reminds me of what x used to do to me when I was 6." Had she known what it was when she was much younger, she would have been able to alert somebody. As it was, although she didn't like it, she didn't know it was wrong so it continued for 2 years. By the time she realised, she was a hormonal teenager and has been struggling with suicide ideation ever since.
Now, I'm not advocating things like anal sex should be taught at that age but, sadly, there is certainly a need for more information for the young.

Very sensible post, choughdancer. There's a definite balance to be had.

VioletSky

What I like about sex education now is that it is very focused on consent and making sure it's understood what is enjoyable.

In order that children learn enough so that they can't be taken advantage of, they need to know all the information and they need to know it should be comfortable and enjoyable not painful or scary

No more lying back and thinking of England

We are talking about under age children here. What you've just said about consent and enjoyment applies to 16 plus age group not 9 year olds! All this detailed sex education at primary school amounts to grooming by paedophiles who want children to accept sex as normal.

Have you read this I posted earlier? I'm not talking about the DM article, I'm talking about the teaching materials which are shown. From what you're saying presumably you think they are suitable for children.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12189041/Twelve-year-olds-taught-anal-sex-school-nine-year-olds-told-masturbate.html

As everyone else has said, lessons need to be age appropriate and whilst I appreciate that children probably know a lot more than we did at that age. I can't remember what I knew at age 9, but I'm pretty glad I didn't have to be imbued with some of the explicit material that schools have for such lessons now. However different days, different influences, I was still fully immersed in a world of Enid Blyton as were many of my peer group.

The testaments of various parents I have read, MN is always quite revealing as to what is being taught and the increasing somewhat covert nature of it of late, in that there isn't a lot of transparency, this is why so many parents are feeling a growing disquiet.

Whilst we know that kids now have a knowledge about all manner of sexual practices that our generation wouldn't have had a clue about, isn't that because of their exposure to pornography which is hardly anything to crow about, knowing the pernicious effect it has on an immature mind at a crucial stage of development.

As far as learning about the fairly extreme practices of anal sex and strangulation for example, I hope it would be in the context of shoring up young people's resistance into coercion in partaking in any practice that could be damaging or dangerous to them and to imbue them with the fortitude to say no if they feel uncomfortable or unsure about anything, particularly when they are at an immature stage or even on the cusp of sexual awakening. Being taught about extreme sexual practices in a rather glib, nonchalant way of "oh this is what some people do" could, well be extremely damaging to some, there's hardly a one size fits all as to a level of maturity reached at any age, and parents should be consulted, they will be the ones who have the judgement an insight into their own child's development.

Why do 9 year olds need to understand ‘what is enjoyable’ VS? That sounds like encouraging them to experiment when they’re seriously under age. As you’re a TA, I have found your posts here rather worrying.