ADHD and school exclusion

Schools are having a dreadful time at the minute with behaviour at an all time low. I teach 3/4 year olds and I’m seriously thinking of weaning it right down due to mental health breakdown of these young people. Teachers are struggling I can assure you. We can’t keep blaming lockdown fir everything but it certainly hasn’t helped with youngsters mental health. Maybe mainstream isn’t right for him. The ecph might take a while as there’s a horrendous backlog. Time and support from you is what is needed.

Gundy

He does sound like he will be entertaining at Kindergarten, and of course, only a few children with autism and other additional needs and/or neuro divergence are “disrupters” some can be quiet and withdrawn and others entertaining and cope well. I wish both your dear GS and OPs GS and all parents the very best moving forward

Entering kindergarten - not entertaining.
Well, maybe that too…

I’m sorry your family is going through this - but especially feel sorry to know your grandson (at the age of 9) is hurting the most!

Based on my niece’s experience with her son (autism spectrum) as soon as she suspected something amiss as a toddler, she found a children’s THERAPIST for evaluation (first), then treatment (second) to help her child. It also helped the family to understand HOW to help him but mostly how to deal with him - it’s a learning curve. Right now parents are overwhelmed and can’t cope. (BTW - nephew is doing great! He’s turned out to be funny and fun, instead of an unhappy disrupter. Will be entertaining kindergarten, 5 yrs)

The earlier you get help - schools will dismiss as much as possible, and time is running out. Drugs are not always the solution.

Help is there - proper channels - you have to seek it out - everyone will benefit.
USA Gundy

Btw, my daughter has ASD !

Glorianny

Let’s agree to disagree then, my daughter, a primary school teacher, currently has 5 of her 34 reception children on the list for assessments, she has an extra Teaching Assistant to help her, 4 out of the 5 are boys, two are very violent and aggressive and one is a “runner”, one other is almost completely non verbal and, understandably , becomes very frustrated, very very quickly as it’s very difficult to know what he needs.

Lots of other little ones in the class have been hurt by two of the boys, who are both on short days at the moment as they simply cannot cope with full school days. One has been sent home once and when returned the next day did cope better. Every time there is an “incident” my daughter logs it after kneeling to the little one’s level and explaining gently that being aggressive towards others is not acceptable, as do the teaching assistants. One child scratches, punches, head butts and spits at both other children and adults.

Last week the reason he did this is because he was so upset that it wasn’t going home time. It’s awful for the children with additional needs, awful for the other pupils and awful for the school staff.

They have good strong policies, which are adhered to, and supportive Senior Leaders, and are a good school. The simple fact is not all children with additional needs should be in mainstream school.

I’m sure there are some schools who aren’t up to the job, but many are and there’s increasing numbers of little ones starting in reception with serious behaviour issues which are not just attributed to “additional needs”. Some in my daughter’s current class are unable to go to the toilet alone, hold a pencil or knife and fork, listen or sit still for a short while during carpet time.

All kinds of provision has been made to help those who need extra support and I’m sorry but funding IS certainly a factor as the waiting time for assessments is getting longer and longer due to staffing issues.

Daddima

Daddima

So, EHCP is Education, Health, and Care Plan,
SEND is Special Educational Needs and Disabilities,

I don’t know what an LSE is . Learning Support something?

I agree with Pippa, and now I have ‘IEP’ to add to LSE, as I don’t know what either of them means. The acronym section doesn’t include any of these, or other medical type acronyms.

The term IEP (Individual Education Plan) and PLP (Personal Learning Plan) or even an IPM (Individual Provision Plan) all refer to a plan devised by the SENDCo (Special Educational Needs Disabilities Coordinator) or Inclusion Leader in partnership with the child's class teacher, parents and the child.

This plan has targets, usually about 3-5 for the child to meet and it should also say how the targets will be met, who will be involved and there should be a review section. Plans should be reviewed termly or sometimes half yearly.

This sort of evidence is essential for an EHCP application and the parents should be given a copy. The school will need to prove that they have tried everything to help.

Another poster mentioned that autistic conditions can often co-exist with ADHD. An autistic 'meltdown' could explain the level of violence. In my experience (ex-SENDCo), ADHD alone would not normally cause such behaviour.

Cossy

Glorianny

If the school has excluded twice within 3 weeks they are obviously not providing your grandson with the support or proper circumstances to enable your GS to cope with his problems. It would be helpful if before he returns they, his parents and him could meet to discuss what has happened and what might have been done to prevent any repetition. Sometimes what needs to happen is for all staff to recognise the problem, step back before the boy feels he has to hit out, provide him with a safe space to reflect in and discuss the discipline issue when he has calmed down. Your GS may well be aware of what he needs but simply be unable to stop himself once he has reached a certain point.

I’m sorry I cannot agree with you. Without the ECHP in place (or even a diagnosis) the school have neither the funds nor the resource to be able to provide the right support for this pupil.

Even with a diagnosis and the funding in place this child would still have to learn lashing out like this is not acceptable behaviour, whatever the reason.

Sometimes a day “exclusion” gives the child an opportunity to chill out, calm down and reflect. All the other pupils in the class have to be supported too. Schools are currently dreadfully under funded, assessments are behind, some schools are having to cope with much larger classes due to RAC issues and there’s a teaching shortage.

Please don’t blame the school for this, it’s the whole system which isn’t working and letting down both pupils and teaching staff.

Sorry Cosy but two exclusions in such a short period indicate a school problem. I have worked in schools which very rarely excluded and had excellent and supportive policies which enabled them to keep children in education. I've also seen schools which have no such provision. It. doesn't need an ECHP it needs a school policy and staff who are capable of dealing with differences.
As for the lashing out of course it isn't acceptable but the problem should never reach that stage. The staff involved should be able to observe when a child is under stress and de-escalate matters to prevent such an outburst. It's called professionalism.
And some schools just can't do it. I usually found it was schools with the most problem children who coped better.
I worked through the ;last funding crisis and it really isn't money it's school ethos, proper policies and a commitment to dealing with differences.
As for a day out helping a child calm down, it usually has the opposite effect. The result of losing your temper is the reward of time out of school, a place you probably don't like anyway. It actually encourages misbehaviour.

StruthRuth
Don’t loose heart. My granddaughter was expelled last year. That was after I don’t know how many exclusions.
Fortunately a teacher at that school recognised, despite her behaviour that she has a brilliant brain.
He got her into a school that is in the top 3 of the county and in the top 10 in the country. She’s flying because the school have a different calibre of teacher. There is discipline that is adhered to, and, when she’s anxious there is a place she can go to with no expectation needed.

Glorianny

Just a thought which might make you feel better. A lecturer discussing ADHD once said that the majority of small businesses are started by people who could be described as this. They are.the risk takers and the entrepreneurs. Your GS may have school problems but may flourish in the wider world.

I agree, school doesn't suit everyone.

Obviously it's important to learn the basics but some children are square pegs and trying to fit them into the round holes of school is difficult.
Some people flourish as soon as they leave school and find their vocation. If they do want or need to stay in education after 16, a further education college may be a better environment for them too.

Daddima

So, EHCP is Education, Health, and Care Plan,
SEND is Special Educational Needs and Disabilities,

I don’t know what an LSE is . Learning Support something?

I agree with Pippa, and now I have ‘IEP’ to add to LSE, as I don’t know what either of them means. The acronym section doesn’t include any of these, or other medical type acronyms.

Chardy

Pippa22

Cossy, what is a PS ?
Gransnet posters are awful at just giving the letters for things and not the full words. I understand if you are in the midst of thugs you would just use the abbreviation but most of us aren’t. Surely posters could just give the full words and an explanation if necessary. It feels to me that others are in the know and I’m excluded. For Gods sake just type the full words, this isn’t a secret society where we need to decipher a code.

There is an Acronym button at the top of the page (underneath the big 'Gransnet Forums')

Actually not one of the acronyms, I believe she means Post Script

Pippa22

Cossy, what is a PS ?
Gransnet posters are awful at just giving the letters for things and not the full words. I understand if you are in the midst of thugs you would just use the abbreviation but most of us aren’t. Surely posters could just give the full words and an explanation if necessary. It feels to me that others are in the know and I’m excluded. For Gods sake just type the full words, this isn’t a secret society where we need to decipher a code.

There is an Acronym button at the top of the page (underneath the big 'Gransnet Forums')

I'm sorry to hear this Struthruth but I second Cossy's post about the difficulties experienced in a mainstream school in attempting to meet the needs of your GS.
In a perfect world there would be sufficient space to give your GS a place to calm himself and enough (spare!) staff to keep a watchful eye and then be available to talk things over with him.
This is very unlikely to be possible in a stretched mainstream primary.
Specialist providers are able to offer such and children gain from this, but their funding is very different- classes of eight or ten pupils with two or three staff are usual.

So sorry to hear about your family's troubles.
Clearly the school don't currently have the facilities in place to deal with your grandson. Until he has been assessed they won't get extra funding to deal with his problems and, although it seems unfair, they cannot continue to have him disrupting the school.
It seems strange to me that the school haven't taken previous steps to get him assessed, problems like this don't usually come out of nowhere. Or is he relatively new to the school?

I don't think I've ever written "Postscript" in full - that's how I took it, though.

Cossy, what is a PS ?
Gransnet posters are awful at just giving the letters for things and not the full words. I understand if you are in the midst of thugs you would just use the abbreviation but most of us aren’t. Surely posters could just give the full words and an explanation if necessary. It feels to me that others are in the know and I’m excluded. For Gods sake just type the full words, this isn’t a secret society where we need to decipher a code.

I feel for you. As a retired teacher has your grandson been diagnosed by health professional? If so school should be aware of this and he should have an IEP and strategies in place and support if required. Also medication, if required, from GP. Im in Scotland but should be similar throughout UK. It's not easy but I would challenge the exclusion,he's 9!,if his condition is recorded. If not it needs to be formally recorded. Just be there and do what you can. Sending hugs to you. Xx

As a PS I truly hope your dear GS gets his diagnosis, is assessed quickly, financed and supported and it maybe that mainstream school is not the suitable for him.

Glorianny

If the school has excluded twice within 3 weeks they are obviously not providing your grandson with the support or proper circumstances to enable your GS to cope with his problems. It would be helpful if before he returns they, his parents and him could meet to discuss what has happened and what might have been done to prevent any repetition. Sometimes what needs to happen is for all staff to recognise the problem, step back before the boy feels he has to hit out, provide him with a safe space to reflect in and discuss the discipline issue when he has calmed down. Your GS may well be aware of what he needs but simply be unable to stop himself once he has reached a certain point.

I’m sorry I cannot agree with you. Without the ECHP in place (or even a diagnosis) the school have neither the funds nor the resource to be able to provide the right support for this pupil.

Even with a diagnosis and the funding in place this child would still have to learn lashing out like this is not acceptable behaviour, whatever the reason.

Sometimes a day “exclusion” gives the child an opportunity to chill out, calm down and reflect. All the other pupils in the class have to be supported too. Schools are currently dreadfully under funded, assessments are behind, some schools are having to cope with much larger classes due to RAC issues and there’s a teaching shortage.

Please don’t blame the school for this, it’s the whole system which isn’t working and letting down both pupils and teaching staff.

Just to say that my granddaughter has just been diagnosed as having ADHD. She was too scared to attend school and when they took her to her GP and he said that he could not treat her at all until her diagnosis had come through which took a year. So going to a GP might be a waste of time.

I’m sorry if I’ve missed it but has he had a diagnosis of ADHD? My DGS has ADHD and I know how challenging it can be both for the boy and his parents. I’m in Scotland so don’t know how things work in the rest of the UK but my DS and wife had a hell of a job to get a diagnosis and then help. The school seemed to think it was a slur on them and their teachers! They were fortunate to be able to go down the private route and they sought physical help as well as his body was slightly unbalanced and his eyesight was compromised. Would this be possible for your GS? DGS still has his moments but all in all has improved so much and gets on ok at school and plays lots of sport. I really hope your family can get some help OP.

So, EHCP is Education, Health, and Care Plan,
SEND is Special Educational Needs and Disabilities,

I don’t know what an LSE is . Learning Support something?

We do not know why he slapped the Head of School, do we... so he might have been provoked. I am not taking the boy's side, but having worked as an LSE, I know that anything is likely to trigger them, especially since they do not understand irony or jokes. Chasing the children away from school is not the solution, because they are going to look at it as a prison, and they might even do things that get them suspended, on purpose.

So sorry your family are struggling. It’s really hard when you are trying to get support for a child that can’t cope with the normal day to day school life. Is there a specialist school he could go to or one with a good SEND presence.
The school should do more to help. Exclusion is not the answer. He needs some quiet time to himself.
Not sure if funds are available but perhaps a private appointment with a child psychologist could help. Don’t know that much about ADHD but know that the National Autistic Society can help with all sorts of things and many autistic children suffer fro ADHD too. Perhaps you could try phoning them to see if they can offer any advice.
Best thing for this young lad is that he’s loved so much. Show him you love him too no matter what.