Grammar schools - 1960s/1970s

Lathyrus3

It’s not quite accurate to say that your place was given to a boy who hadn’t passed. He had passed. It was just that the pass mark for boys was lower than the pass mark for girls!

This is why there were equal numbers. The system ensured that.

Not true in my area. It was single sex, so the pass mark depended on what was needed to fill up the places. We were never given the pass mark anyway.

I was an RAF brat. Seven private schools and then three all girl grammar schools. I only spent one term in each of the first two and disliked them both.
Finally ending up in a school I grew to love and friendships I could value rather than discard every two years was a revelation.
All I remember about the eleven plus was being told I’d passed. No fuss just Well Done! Dad must have been very relieved because I doubt they’d have sent me to a secondary modern and although the forces paid school fees there were some astronomical extras.

JackyB

I passed my 11+ and went to the local Grammar school. But I came here to say that the Secondary Modern school next door where those who hadn't passed went was a jolly good school too! So not all sec mods were awful.

I taught in a sec mod. Most of the top sets did O levels, and we had a Sixth Form doing A levels.

Yup - the pass mark for girls was set higher than for boys.

growstuff

All the grammar schools in my area were single sex, so there was no question of giving more places to boys to make sure there was a 50/50 split.

The same where I lived.

However, the pass rate was dependent on the number of grammar school places in any particular area.

It banished many children to dreadful sec mods.

The secondary modern schools in my town were in fact very good.

Not many pupils from the Girls' High School went on to university, although several went to teacher training college, which was the only approved career! Pupils at the secondary modern schools seemed to receive far more encouragement to achieve to the very best of their abilities.

growstuff

Lathyrus3

It’s not quite accurate to say that your place was given to a boy who hadn’t passed. He had passed. It was just that the pass mark for boys was lower than the pass mark for girls!

This is why there were equal numbers. The system ensured that.

Not true in my area. It was single sex, so the pass mark depended on what was needed to fill up the places. We were never given the pass mark anyway.

Nationally boys as a group scored lower than girls.

So if there were an equal number if single sex places boys could get into a grammar school with fewer points than girls.

So say you needed say there were 100 places for each. The highest hundred of girls would get in. And the highest hundred of boys would get in.

But girls got higher marks so that 100 would be getting say 95% . But the 100 boys would be maybe those who got 90%.

So there would be a group of girls who got 90-94%, who scored higher than the boys, but who would wouldnt get a grammar school place, even though they beat the boys.

And in some areas there were more places for boys anyway, so those boys maybe nay scored 75%, but still got a place though the girls at 94% didn’t.

I don’t think I’m explaining this very well😳

I went to a girls’ grammar school in one of England’s ‘posh’ tourist trap cities. My dad worked in the Admiralty drawing offices and we lived in an admiralty administered house on a council estate. That grammar school was the absolute antithesis of what grammar schools were supposed to be: for bright kids like me from poorer, less advantaged backgrounds to have the opportunity of a first class education.
The school’s first line of deterrence was the uniform, available from only one provider, supplied only through the school. The list was endless and ridiculous: separate winter and summer uniforms, including straw boaters, Venetian striped blazers and Clarke’s sandals. Even the type of hockey stick was stipulated. The cost was so great that some girls had to decline their places. My parents certainly struggled to kit me out.
To my dismay I was put into the bottom of four classes, while people who had done less well than me at primary school were in higher classes. I felt ashamed. It took us a full term to realise that this ‘bottom’ class was exclusively for girls from the two council estates. Not a single council house girl was in any of the higher classes and no girl from a privately owned home was in our bottom group. I recall a girl asking our form mistress about this and she admitted this was the school policy.
Luckily, after two years, my father was transferred to Scotland and I went to the local high school where no one cared where you lived and opportunity was offered to everyone who wanted to take advantage of what was then a flexible and top rate education system. Sadly things have changed there now.
I think the grammar school I attended was unique in its approach, but I doubt it.

My four grandchildren all went to grammar schools as their neighbouring county still has the 11+. Separate schools for boys and girls.
For boys, places are awarded to those with the highest marks in the 11+, in rank order.
For girls, they simply need to pass the 11+, then places are awarded according to proximity. This varies from year to year. All four of my GC live outside the county boundary, so the girls were fortunate to get in.
I don’t know why the two schools are allowed to operate by different criteria.

I failed the 11+ and attended an awful secondary modern school. I grew up believing I wasn’t very bright.

Subsequently I was lucky enough to go back into education. I did GCSEs and A levels, achieving As in every subject. I have a diploma in nursing, a degree in public health and a post-grad in teaching.

I’ve also learned how flawed the 11+ system was. The exam itself was based on the work of Cyril Burt who later was discredited for lying about his studies. The system was biased against girls. It also very much depended where you lived, in terms of grammar school availability. You may have passed the 11+ but limited places resulted in a fail.

I lived in London where the pass rate was high ( around 42% if I remember) I got a scholarship to a boarding school but my mum didn’t want me to go so I went to the local girls’ grammar. A good school in many ways but the choice of subjects was very limited and I regret that to this day. You were not allowed to mix arts and science subjects. Ridiculous. Funny, these days the parents would scream from the rooftops but it was just accepted then.

I was also the child of a man in the forces so I had attended several schools before taking the 11+. However, the exam was not based on knowledge but on intellect, so it made no difference. I passed and was asked if I wished to go to a boarding school but we were living in Cyprus so no contest!
When we returned to England I attended grammar schools, which were all single-sex. If the numbers were manipulated, it may have been to fill the schools, not for the sake of equality.

Luckygirl3

Yup - the pass mark for girls was set higher than for boys.

So given most grammars were single sex how did that work? If you got a pass mark and all the schools were full did you get a place? What if it was the opposite? Were there empty seats in September because a few girls were a mark short of the pass mark?

There wasn't a set passmark from what I know of my own area, if there were say 1,000 places in the girls grammar then the 1,000 girls with the top marks got a place (slight tinkering with marks adjusted for children born at different points in the year.) There was also which grammar you selected, as an example in my city there were two Catholic grammar schools, one for boys and one for girls. You needed a high mark to get a place in either of those schools as pretty well 100% of Catholic families put them as a first choice and then they were very successful because the children who got in had high passmarks so lots of non Catholic children also put it as first choice.

I think it was all a lot more complicated than people realise.

Single sex here too, still are, although some girls are allowed into boys 6th form. Girls consistently achieves better results but both are highly regarded, many parents do pay for extra tuition to pass 11 plus.
Primary schools in this area are very variable unless children go to one of several private primary schools, grammar schools are seen as a good and much cheaper alternative to a private secondary school.
Having parents able to instill the discipline of learning is an enormous advantage for the child

Lathyrus3

growstuff

Lathyrus3

It’s not quite accurate to say that your place was given to a boy who hadn’t passed. He had passed. It was just that the pass mark for boys was lower than the pass mark for girls!

This is why there were equal numbers. The system ensured that.

Not true in my area. It was single sex, so the pass mark depended on what was needed to fill up the places. We were never given the pass mark anyway.

Nationally boys as a group scored lower than girls.

So if there were an equal number if single sex places boys could get into a grammar school with fewer points than girls.

So say you needed say there were 100 places for each. The highest hundred of girls would get in. And the highest hundred of boys would get in.

But girls got higher marks so that 100 would be getting say 95% . But the 100 boys would be maybe those who got 90%.

So there would be a group of girls who got 90-94%, who scored higher than the boys, but who would wouldnt get a grammar school place, even though they beat the boys.

And in some areas there were more places for boys anyway, so those boys maybe nay scored 75%, but still got a place though the girls at 94% didn’t.

I don’t think I’m explaining this very well😳

But that in no way means that boys were given girls places as the vast majority of grammar schools were single sex.

I scraped by in the 11-plus, but didn't go to grammar school - parents couldn't afford all the equipment etc., anyway, as we'd just moved house. Istead, I went to the bilateral school next to it, and was in a grammar stream class throughout.

I never heard of the discrimination against girls with regard to the lowest passes. I went to a Girls' Grammar, but there was also a Boys' Grammar, two mixed Grammars, a boys' and a girls' Catholic Grammar two bi-lateral schools and in 1957 the first Comprehensive school to open. There was a range of secondary schools, some very good and forward thinking, and just one dreadful one, which had endless resources poured into it to improve it, but an endless struggle.

I was told that boys suddenly discovered they had brains at about ten; the kindly secondary school master was spinning something of a yarn about boys developing brains in their teens; more to do with social conditioning: boys were expected to have careers, girls to have jobs before they got married.
The girls' grammars generally promoted the idea that women could do anything, and were expected to do so, definitely a career and appropriate qualifications, degrees, teacher training, medical, engineering, art, drama, secretarial qualifications of all types.
Women's Lib without all the shouting.

Georgesgran

Durham City had both boys and girls Grammar Schools, so in 1962, I’d have no idea of any bias. I still have friends from my Grammar School days.
Sister-in-law started at the local Secondary Modern School when she moved. She didn’t like it and somehow managed to be transferred to their local Grammar School, despite failing the 11+.

I’ve often wondered about that.

Yes I know a girl who did that. She failed the 11 plus but transferred to the grammar in the second year.
I asked how that was possible and she said the grammar school had a spare place. They took her on her school report and end of year test results at the secondary modern.

She had catch up lessons after school for Latin. I guessed parents pushed for the move because her older sister was already at the grammar school.

I missed the 11 plus by 2 years. The county I lived in was the first to go fully comprehensive.

I ‘failed’ the 11- plus, much to my teacher’s surprise! There was a consistent pattern in the number of boys and girls who passed every year. One year it was 7 boys and 3 girls, the next year 7 girls and 3 boys. Unfortunately I was in the first group. The 3 girls who passed in my year were summer babies who were given the extra marks. There were separate schools for boys and girls, 3 miles apart. The boys school was a lot larger than the girls school.
On reflection I do wonder if a certain number of places were allocated to the individual primary schools every year. That may have been a decision made by the education authority.

However in the first year of the secondary modern school I came top in the exams, was interviewed by the headmistress and governors of the grammar school and was transferred into the second year of the grammar school. I struggled to catch up as algebra, geometry, chemistry, physics and languages were not taught in the secondary modern school.

Having said all that, many of my friends in the secondary modern school did as well in their careers as my friends in the grammar school. It just took them a bit longer to get their qualifications through further education and night school.

Abnuyc123

I failed the 11+ and attended an awful secondary modern school. I grew up believing I wasn’t very bright.

Subsequently I was lucky enough to go back into education. I did GCSEs and A levels, achieving As in every subject. I have a diploma in nursing, a degree in public health and a post-grad in teaching.

I’ve also learned how flawed the 11+ system was. The exam itself was based on the work of Cyril Burt who later was discredited for lying about his studies. The system was biased against girls. It also very much depended where you lived, in terms of grammar school availability. You may have passed the 11+ but limited places resulted in a fail.

Your experience is similar to mine. It was such a divisive, flawed system.

My South London primary school was huge and we were told only a very small passes were expected at 11+. I have an August birthday so was only 10 in the Autumn of 1958 and had just arrived from New Zealand.
My older sister had begun at the very new, Comprehensive school but hated it so our widowed mother paid for her to go to the GPDST girls' school several miles away which was Direct Grant and like a grammar school.

The pressure on me was very strong to pass so I could follow my sister but for free. The exam was very hard for me especially the English paper which was full of quotations I didn't recognise.
Months went by and I was so worried that my mum went to see the headmistress to find out .
Mum was told that even if I hadn't passed I did she had the authority to offer a Governor's place to deserving children.

Could that be true? Anyway however I got in, I was excited to go as a scholarship girl to my sister's school, I got a bike which I rode to school sometimes.
Sadly I wasn't very happy there .

The best thing I ever did was to fail the 11plus. Because the High school had good technical facilities for science, metal work, woodwork, together with maths, discipline was good. I enjoyed my school days we had good teachers, certainly a better education than most get today.

My Grammar School was girls only with the boys having their Grammar School nearby.

In my area there was one boys grammar and one girls grammar so no problem. All the grammar schools we ever had contact with for matches or other events were single sex, we were kept well away from the boys!!
The education system should raise everyone up not dumb down to the lowest.

Georgesgran

Durham City had both boys and girls Grammar Schools, so in 1962, I’d have no idea of any bias. I still have friends from my Grammar School days.
Sister-in-law started at the local Secondary Modern School when she moved. She didn’t like it and somehow managed to be transferred to their local Grammar School, despite failing the 11+.

I’ve often wondered about that.

In my area people were occasionally transferred from secondary moderns, if it appeared later that the 11 plus had somehow got it wrong.

A girl at my junior school ended up at the secondary modern that was everybody’s last choice - she’d managed to turn over 2 pages of the 11 plus booklet together, and didn’t realise until just before the end.
Which is why I repeated this horror story to dds before every exam! Make sure you’ve answered all the questions!!

Whether the girl was ever transferred I don’t know - there was another girls’ grammar apart from mine,