Graduates on benefits claiming too sick to work

David, you obviously have a thing about non work related degrees as you have posted a similar point before. Education at a higher level is a useful tool in itself. It promotes self discipline and research skills which would be useful in any job as others have said. The Telegraph has it's own bias too.
To be fair, I think it was Tony Blair who pushed the university places for most without looking at improving technical colleges, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
Schools don't necessarily force children to go to university but if there are fewer other options, what would you suggest they do? Apprenticeships are not easily available either

Cossy

NotSpaghetti

My point was really that lots of courses don't and shouldn't be a "pathway" to anything.

The mistake is assuming it is (or should be).

I completely agree, education is great, learning is a lifelong experience and University offers far more than just a degree.

I'll third that.

I never understand why people not involved get exercised about others doing degrees that they see as pointless. If you can't see the value of a subject, then (a) maybe find out a bit more about it, as degrees don't get validated easily, and there will be far more to it than you realise from the outside, and (b) if you still can't understand the point, then just do something else. But why rubbish other people's achievements?

One thing an education teaches is how to separate evidence from jumping to conclusions such as that sick graduates must have been 'encouraged by teachers to take the university route'. Is there evidence for that? Did the students not have any independent thought? Influence from parents? Peer pressure? Love of a subject? Ambition? Desire to grow up a bit in a semi-supervised environment away from home? Something else?

I know you are against young people getting education, David, but come on. What makes you think your grandchildren are representative of the country at large, and how do you know what they all earn? I can't imagine discussing that with my grandparents, or my children doing so with my mother. They would be even less inclined to do so if they knew that they would be compared against one another, for whether they have 'proper jobs', their salary, and the value (in your eyes) of their education.

The days when a degree was a passport to a lifetime of secure well-paid employment are over. More people have degrees, so they don't make graduates stand out in the way they used to. This means that subject knowledge is not, in itself, enough, and graduates have to compete with one another for the best jobs. I don't see this as a bad thing. In the past, someone with a degree was often considered suitable for management roles, whether or not they had 'people skills' or an aptitude for leadership. Apart from the misery a bad manager can cause, the elitism meant that people with talent but no degree were often excluded from opportunities.

I know that there are those who don't value education other than as a way to fill technical vacancies, but luckily there are more who realise that it gives so much more - both to society and to the individual.

As regards sick pay, I think there is a case for benefits being linked to contributions, so new graduates (or school leavers) should not be able to claim until they have paid a certain number number of NI contributions. There would be problems that would have to be solved, such as what to do about those with no parental support, and those who are genuinely unable to work, but in principle I don't think that anyone should be able to claim benefits before paying into the system that provides them. I struggle with the idea that someone who has managed to get a degree is mentally incapable of holding a job. Degrees involve a lot of stress. Exams, assignments and presentations are all stressful, and someone who has juggled all of these things should be able to manage an entry-level job.

I also think that assessment methods should be made clear on application for a course (they always are, IME, but still), and there should be no exemptions on the grounds of MH. If you can't deliver a presentation, sit an exam or contribute to a class discussion you should not apply for courses that require those things. It is not fair to the majority of students who force themselves to do them, and it misrepresents the qualification. If a student has managed to get a qualification without meeting the advertised requirements of their course, it is quite likely that when they get to the workplace they will be anxious.

Perhaps more schools should offer T levels, a 2 year course equivalent to 3 A-levels providing vocational education option and apprenticeships.They are developed in collaboration with employers, and have industry placements.

My lot are probably not represemsativeof the 4 that did go to Uni, 3 did arts degrees that were never going to lead to work. The 4th did get a 2.1 but no companies are hiring and now works as a hotel receptionist but does not seem committed to anything in particular.

The state cannot afford to spend so much on higher education that doesnt improve the prospects of the younger generation. It should be determined which skills the nation needs and tuition should be free for those disciplines, its not going to cost more than the system of loans that are never going to be paid back and more technical qualications will reduce the number of migrants we have to rely on.

David, please research ~T- levels and you will see that money is being spent in a good way.

westendgirl

Perhaps more schools should offer T levels, a 2 year course equivalent to 3 A-levels providing vocational education option and apprenticeships.They are developed in collaboration with employers, and have industry placements.

3 of my GC and a lot of my friends GC have gone to a residential college (too far for day travel) at 16 where they can study the work related course of their choice or straight A levels. Its a very popular alternative to an apprentiship, or school, work experience in the holidays is part of the course.

BTEC is the Qualification is T Level going to replace it?

Sometimes people who study one subject can be quite narrow. Both my children have degrees and I haven’t but I am far more well-informed than either of them. I don’t think university made them particularly well-rounded. They had a lot of fun though. I think it means different things to different people.

OldFrill

keepingquiet

In my nursing days we had post grad nurses and they got fast-tracked through their training. Sometimes they were completely clueless.
I once asked a nurse what she had done in her first degree and she said zoology!

This was before the days of nursing degrees? The current Graduate Nursing Scheme is for those with nursing degrees.

At least zoology would teach her how the bodies of animals work. Since humans are mammals that isn't a bad start on how humans work and how to care for them when their bodies need help.

westendgirl

Perhaps more schools should offer T levels, a 2 year course equivalent to 3 A-levels providing vocational education option and apprenticeships.They are developed in collaboration with employers, and have industry placements.

Some of my DGC's friends started off taking A levels at FE Colleges but have switched halfway through to T levels or are thinking of doing an additional T level after A levels.

3 did arts degrees that were never going to lead to work

Why would an Arts Degree not lead to work? Arts cover a wide range of subjects.
One of mine did an Arts degree and has never been out of work although she was made redundant once (not just her, the firm made a lot of redundancies). She spent her redundancy money taking a further qualification which has enabled her to take up a different career.

Fallingstar

As an erstwhile teacher I would recommend more vocational courses that are not viewed as ‘second best’ to academic courses, and bring back the tech colleges and polytechnics. Youngsters who don’t want to study Shakespeare from year 10 should be able to opt out of academic studies to study vocational subjects, is frustrating for pupils to have to study subjects they are not good at and feel frustrated with. Plumbers, electricians, mechanical engineers, roofers, hairdressers, and construction engineering etc., are well paid jobs that youngsters need and this country needs.

Absolutely agree!

There was a time where - if I'd wanted children - then I would have assumed/expected they'd go to University. But - that was then (ie when I think it was only 5% that went there). So I'd have had visions of them coming out with a professional job, making a group of friends/contacts, maybe meeting a spouse.

These days - when I think it's 50% that are going - I would take quite the reverse view and be scanning for what tradespeople jobs they might be able to train for instead (there wouldnt be the possible spouses/contacts) - but they should be much surer of a job come the end of it and on the terms they decided to have. Probably rather a well-paid one at that. Years back now the regular plumber I had in my last house told me what sort of money he was earning!!! - and he wasnt overcharging either and he said he could earn even more if that was his priority and he put his mind to it - but he felt he was doing okay as he was.

Add in these are a type of job rather less likely to be replaced by AI and it makes sense to me.

For government to insist on schools teaching only certain subjects which colleges etc will then teach further is extremely short sighted. Most courses are 3 years duration. The needs of the economy can change quickly. First instance, there used to be a big push to encourage children to go into geography teaching only to find there were no jobs once they had graduated. My dsil did a welding apprenticeship which was difficult to find. Now, there are few welding jobs for those who are just coming out. He's fortunate to still be working. It's mot as straightforward as you suggest

David49 Does the article state what percentage of non graduates are claiming benefits at age 21? I think without knowing that it’s hard to make any judgment on whether this is an issue specific to graduates or not?

David Tlevels are replacing Btec.

Interesting thread.

Times do change.

I am fairly sure that there has been a notable increase in young people claiming benefits across the board. I vaguely remember a thread on the subject.

When we were new graduates, broke and jobless, we and everybody we knew, were willing to do whatever work we could get, and go where ever we could find a job. It never even crossed our minds to apply for state benefits. DH and I married as soon as our finals were over. I missed our honeymoon ( a one-day ponytrek with friends) because I had a last minute and very unexpected Viva.
DH went on the honeymoon without me.

My first job as a graduate wife ( First class BA; Joint Honours in Eng Lit and History of Art) was in a butchers shop serving meat; DH was a dustman with a Bsc in physics, collecting rubbish bins for the Council. We worked to pay the rent and support ourselves ( for months) while we applied for graduate vacancies. (Which is how we ended up living 200 miles apart for the first year of our marriage; and even further apart in year 3).

Back then, graduates did not go back home to Mummy. They got off their arses ,went wherever the work was, and expected to live poor until they could do better. Every field of education, and every kind of menial work , are opportunities to acquire transferable skills and a flexible mindset.

Every field of education, and every kind of menial work , are opportunities to acquire transferable skills and a flexible mindset.

Yes, showing a willingness to do any kind of job shows initiative and enterprise.

Galaxy

I am fairly sure that there has been a notable increase in young people claiming benefits across the board. I vaguely remember a thread on the subject.

Yes, benefit claim are up across the board. Unfortunately.

The trouble nowadays about getting off your arse and not running home to mummy is the lack of affordable housing, even rubbish places.

Our middle child left university without a job but was going through a long drawn out interview process so he was 3/4 months at home.

We were both working, he got a job at the village pub, dug a vegetable garden, did most of the cooking and did all the dog walking.

It was lovely having that time with him.

Mine both stayed where they had studied, as they had built lives there. Both have moved on since then, but by the time that happened they had steady jobs, so stayed put. Not so-called 'graduate jobs' at first, but both have climbed the ladder and are now doing well (both manage departments), and despite high rents and student loans both are buying houses. Neither has ever claimed benefits.

I am proud of both of them, and would have been whether or not they had degrees. Their years of living away from home taught them independence and resilience as well as the subject knowledge that allowed them to show employers that they were worth an investment in further training and promotion. Neither is in a 'technical' role, but both are in sectors that 'the state needs', for what that's worth.

It is possible to do well without a degree, but it is much harder to gain the 'graduateness' that many employers look for unless you go to university. This is why, despite the fact that far more people have degrees than used to be the case, graduates still earn significantly more than non-graduates over their careers. According to AI, a median salary for a UK graduate is £42k, with a median non-graduate salary sits at £30500. The gap increases as people get older, as a 22 year old non-grad may have been working for 5 years or so, so will be further up the scale when the graduate starts, but by the time they are both 35+ the difference is clear.

Very proud of my oldest grandson - he graduated last year and applied for 40 jobs, more suited to his degree, but failed to even get an interview.
He is not just sitting at home and claiming benefits. He has 2 jobs - as a barman and the other, as a driver for one of our local car dealerships. He loves it - he gets to drive some very, very nice cars. He will continue with this, till the right job comes along.

Surely its a well known fact that worklessness only exacerbates poor mental health?
Moreover I would have thought that having a fit note before even embarking on a job - any job - will mean that the chances of getting out of that rut will be less. Being signed off, I assume a GP has to do this, must be soul destroying before you even get started.