What do you think about university?

What I would add to the wise things others have written here is that, since further education became more like a business than a service, far too many people are currently being educated beyond their capabilities. Why? Because higher student numbers make more profits for more institutions. Academic excellence would be a wonderful goal for everyone to aim for but the setup doesn't work like that any more. As I said on another thread, it's now bums-on-seats that count.
Of course there are some stunningly articulate, talented graduates coming out of universities now, but they aren't in the majority. Also, a shocking number of teachers are leaving education now because it seems that teaching is one of the last things they're expected to do (paperwork, paperwork, keeping pass numbers up by whatever means possible - and don't forget paperwork). I know several higher education lecturers of my generation who have taken early retirement (and a reduced pension) rather than continue to deal with the "ideals" currently being worshipped across the board.
We've gone from a situation where university was largely only an option for the well-heeled (unless you were lucky enough to secure a scholarship) to one where anybody and everybody can get a place and be passed out at the end, whether or not they're suited for the kind of academic work they'll be faced with.
Probably most doting parents (and grandparents) like to think that their own kids are brilliant, but it's a fact of modern life that school-leavers are not being prepared for the realities of life - parents and children are being hoodwinked into believing that a university degree will open any and every door they might knock at. That opens up a whole can full of worms to discuss, such as mounting debt, the demise of apprenticeships for the practical rather than academic, and the question of what the resulting degrees are actually worth in the long run.
The education service needs a re-jig, which can't happen as long as universities are operating under the principles of a slick business model.

I always wonder how so many people feel able to belittle courses they haven't taken, and universities they haven't attended. Most of us attend one or two, and take one course at each, so have little idea about what goes on in other areas.

In which case the university education is totally wasted as it has narrowed the mind and shut down any knowledge outside the chosen field.

We could not survive as a species if we were not capable of empirical thought. I have been to three universities reading different subjects, I have children, friends who are currently in the university sector. I come across other people in daily life who have university experience. we chat among our sleves we contribute to conversations, learn from them and use our good university education to evaluate what we hear. Of course we are able to reach conclusions about what happens on other courses and in other universities.

What Spagetti said at the start and on from there as regards critical thinking and who you will meet and hopefully flourish and bring so much to all and to the UK:

just agree that vocational training should be available to far more and that it should be respected on an equal basis, as they do in Germany.
So what David said about those who would flourish far more and be their personal best in other forms of higher education

M0nica

^I always wonder how so many people feel able to belittle courses they haven't taken, and universities they haven't attended. Most of us attend one or two, and take one course at each, so have little idea about what goes on in other areas.^

In which case the university education is totally wasted as it has narrowed the mind and shut down any knowledge outside the chosen field.

We could not survive as a species if we were not capable of empirical thought. I have been to three universities reading different subjects, I have children, friends who are currently in the university sector. I come across other people in daily life who have university experience. we chat among our sleves we contribute to conversations, learn from them and use our good university education to evaluate what we hear. Of course we are able to reach conclusions about what happens on other courses and in other universities.

That's pretty much exactly what I was saying, M0nica, and reflects my own experience, except that I have also taught in the sector.😀

In reply to the question about parental support upthread - of course it is important that parents are in favour of eduction for the sake of it, particularly if young people are to take courses in Arts and Humanities subjects. These days, it costs a lot of money to put a child through HE (which is not the same as college, and rarely brings with it a scholarship, incidentally). Students do need parental support.

CarrotTop

What I would add to the wise things others have written here is that, since further education became more like a business than a service, far too many people are currently being educated beyond their capabilities. Why? Because higher student numbers make more profits for more institutions. Academic excellence would be a wonderful goal for everyone to aim for but the setup doesn't work like that any more. As I said on another thread, it's now bums-on-seats that count.
Of course there are some stunningly articulate, talented graduates coming out of universities now, but they aren't in the majority. Also, a shocking number of teachers are leaving education now because it seems that teaching is one of the last things they're expected to do (paperwork, paperwork, keeping pass numbers up by whatever means possible - and don't forget paperwork). I know several higher education lecturers of my generation who have taken early retirement (and a reduced pension) rather than continue to deal with the "ideals" currently being worshipped across the board.
We've gone from a situation where university was largely only an option for the well-heeled (unless you were lucky enough to secure a scholarship) to one where anybody and everybody can get a place and be passed out at the end, whether or not they're suited for the kind of academic work they'll be faced with.
Probably most doting parents (and grandparents) like to think that their own kids are brilliant, but it's a fact of modern life that school-leavers are not being prepared for the realities of life - parents and children are being hoodwinked into believing that a university degree will open any and every door they might knock at. That opens up a whole can full of worms to discuss, such as mounting debt, the demise of apprenticeships for the practical rather than academic, and the question of what the resulting degrees are actually worth in the long run.
The education service needs a re-jig, which can't happen as long as universities are operating under the principles of a slick business model.

I agree, however I’d disagree with the statement that back in the day it was just the “well heeled”. As there were no fees and generous grants, in the main, it was academically more able who attended, some of whom will have have very comfortable backgrounds.

My cousin, now late 50’s, came from a single parent household, but was exceptionally bright. He flew through the 11+ and gained his place at Oxford purely on academic prowess and his interview.

He’s now a paediatric consultant at a very known Children’s Hospital outside London.

My next door neighbour and opposite neighbour also attended our local boys Grammar schools, both went off to University. One became a very well respected lawyer, the other a successful business, both got good degrees. Both family’s were not poor, but certainly were not wealthy by any means.

I believe that it approx 5% of students who went into University back in my school days, I went to an all girls Secondary Modern in the 70’s. Many of my peers went into Nursing and Primary school teaching, a few become secretaries and nursery nurses, fewer went into the Civil Service or Banking.

There, imho, was absolutely nothing wrong with the technical college, Polytechnic and University setup.

I'm glad people have realised that it's not a passport to a highly-paid prestigious career. If a young person (and their parents) decide to bear the ongoing cost, it's a great way to meet people, have fun and expand the mind while becoming an adult.
It used to be the case that solicitors and accountants didn't necessarily go to university. They were articled to a firm and learned on the job. It was the same with banking..
What has mass university take-up been doing to the self-esteem of those who don't go to university? But I begin to think that it's becoming cool not to go.
Obviously the truly academic should and will go to the best universities.

Re money -
Four of my five children went to university. We only helped them in a very minimal way as our income wouldn't allow any more than that. No paying for housing etc.

One had a grant from a charitable society when she was starting out (after university).
Nevertheless two went on to do higher degrees - they borrowed for it.
One paid back all student loans by mid 30s. One really feels burdened by the student loans. Two aren't concerned about the student debt at all.

My postgraduate study was as a working person. I did it part time and paid in installments- and it was truly amazing to have this opportunity as a 55 year old. My husband's postgraduate degrees were both scholarships. Scholarships are still out there.

Sometimes I think people expect university to be like school - but it is a fascinating, challenging and very different beast.

As a young person - particularly if you live away from home- it is a life enriching experience, well worth doing if you are able, I think.

Your notion that " university and school grades simply measure how well we do what we are told—in other words, how well we succeed at being slaves? " strongly suggests you have not studied at university.

My school and university offered me a range of intellectual tools to pick from and work with. What I did with them ( and still do) is and was entirely up to me.

Not sure what they gained academically but my son and my ex husband formed very close friendships at uni that are still as strong today. The most successful member of my family financially is my SIL who left school as soon as he could and the most successful one of my friends dropped out of school before she even did her o levels.

Doodledog

M0nica

I always wonder how so many people feel able to belittle courses they haven't taken, and universities they haven't attended. Most of us attend one or two, and take one course at each, so have little idea about what goes on in other areas.

In which case the university education is totally wasted as it has narrowed the mind and shut down any knowledge outside the chosen field.

We could not survive as a species if we were not capable of empirical thought. I have been to three universities reading different subjects, I have children, friends who are currently in the university sector. I come across other people in daily life who have university experience. we chat among our sleves we contribute to conversations, learn from them and use our good university education to evaluate what we hear. Of course we are able to reach conclusions about what happens on other courses and in other universities.

That's pretty much exactly what I was saying, M0nica, and reflects my own experience, except that I have also taught in the sector.😀

In reply to the question about parental support upthread - of course it is important that parents are in favour of eduction for the sake of it, particularly if young people are to take courses in Arts and Humanities subjects. These days, it costs a lot of money to put a child through HE (which is not the same as college, and rarely brings with it a scholarship, incidentally). Students do need parental support.

I believe there is help for students who are estranged from their parents. How successful that is l don't know. But to deny them hope of a place is unforgivable, arts or not.

There is help for estranged students. We had someone on here talking about it.

I wanted to study medicine and was encouraged by all my head teachers. Unfortunately my parents were horrified I’m still disappointed but here I am, 75 and running a business. Not the same thing but very satisfactory.

Is it a cattery?

Not anymore NotSpaghetti. Did run a cattery for some years in Spain.

University is great for the high fliers - those that get mostly A at A level others would do better to go go the local college and learn a skill. The new student loan rules mean you pay more back at a lower wage and for longer too

I think it depends how you measure 'better'. We all know people who made £££ with no qualifications and others with PhDs who are penniless, but which has done 'better'? Trends show that graduates still earn more over their lifetimes than those who don't have degrees, though.

Many people value education in its own right. Some don't, and in that case training may suit them better than education - it's horses for courses, really.

I was very lucky to accidentally fall back into formal education in my 50s.
My M.A. was one of the most exciting and challenging things I've done.
My life is definitely "better" for having done this.