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Estrangement

The Brainwashing Behind Going No Contact

(1001 Posts)
nina1959 Wed 08-Mar-17 08:31:00

I hope it's OK to post this here. I'm sure Gransnet will move it if it's not but in view of all those estranged, cut off parents unable to understand why their adult children treat them like they do, this very well written post sums it up perfectly.
It was sent to me this morning. Obviously some AC have no choice but to keep their distance from abusive parents, we understand this. But this NC approach being liberally recommended is a highly destructive trend ruining many lives.

' I am in the position that my estranged daughter is treating me like I'm toxic when I feel it's the other way around. We've been studying this for awhile now. Why are there so many adult children cutting off their families. These are things that we came up with. Something interesting: we've all noticed how our EC all do the same mean stuff and say the same mean things. It's like they're reading a script or like they all joined the same cult.
I have news for you. They are all reading a script. They did join the same cult.
What they are doing is called "Going No Contact". It's literally a scripted plan that they follow. It starts when they judge us as not just humans with whom they disagree, but "evil" because we don't see things their way. They complain online, and meet other complaining children who honestly believe, thanks to the self-esteem movement, that any time they were uncomfortable for a moment equals abuse. If their parents disagreed with them or made them do something that they didn't like or whacked their fresh asses when they talked back or refused to follow rules, they add this to their pile of justification. Lacking coping skills, they believe that anytime they are not happy, they have been wronged, and the person who dared to 'make' them feel bad is a Narcissist.
A Narcissist to them is what 'possessed' meant to our parents. The Narcissist is pure evil and a force to be feared and hated. They all bolster one another's justification of their interpretation of who we are. They swap war stories that are positively ridiculous, such as stories of the "evil narcissistic mother in law who wore a different dress than agreed upon to the wedding" or the "evil, narcissistic mother who took away all of their toys until their chores were done". I've seen both of those in these groups.
After justifying to themselves that they are RIGHT and their parents are EVIL NARCISSISTS, they begin plans to "Go No Contact". It is a systematic plan to discard the parents/grandparent, and turn the kids against grandparents. There are actual steps to this plan. They vary from group to group, but they are essentially all similar.
The groups talk a lot about setting boundaries, but what they call setting boundaries is just rude dictating, and setting their targets up to fail. Stuff like "I told my mother that she can come over between 12 and 1 on Sundays only. If she is one minute early or stays one minute late, that will be the end of her visits." Part of the plan is to NOT tell mother what she did wrong, just to enact the "consequence". They know that the targeted parent will try to rectify the situation. They react in a way that is illogical: refusing to answer questions, insisting that any apology is a manipulative lie and therefore is insincere, ordering parent out of their house, putting parents in that time out thing where they tell us not to contact them for a certain length of time, and then they will "review our request".
They post joyful stories of their parents reaction to losing grandkids or their parents pleas for an explanation. They cheer each other on and congratulate one another for cutting family off. Refusing to give any explanation is part of the plan. They call it Taking Your Power Back.
They claim that it's to protect themselves from the evil narcissists who are terrorizing them, but in reality, it's not about protection or healing. It's about power, control, and just being shitty. They don't know the difference between assertive and aggressive, and they think being arbitrary is the same as having boundaries.
Google "Going No Contact". You will find pages and pages of groups and instructions that will not surprisingly match exactly what our kids are doing.
I think this information can be very helpful. We can learn what they want us to do, so we can do the opposite.
I strongly urge every single person here to read up on "Going No Contact". It's like a map to navigate this territory. It even gets amusing sometimes, reading the steps and thinking "You're such a lemming". Who the hell would follow this crap.
They would, that's who'

MesMopTop Tue 05-Dec-17 15:17:55

Thankyou Smileless. I know you and the other ladies have your own troubles and don't need mine, but I've held all this in so long and what I read last night was just toouch, I never thought you could feel real physical pain from grief and I have had many terrible things happen but this just seems worse than even some of the situations I've been in when I've had to fight for my life. I don't want to sound like a drama queen and hope to god o don't read like one. However, I just can't carry on like this because o know it will only bring me down and I have a husband that needs me. It's aftet 1 am here and even though I've been working since 2 pm, I just can't slerp, got home at midnight and still wide awake. Maybe I should try going to bed and cuddling up with DH and DH 2 (dear hound). I think I'll gsin some comfort from them both. Thankyou again for letting me ramble and rant ladies, I do feel a bit better actually voicing some of this. I only hope you all get to the other side yourselves xxxxxxxx

Smileless2012 Tue 05-Dec-17 15:06:23

This may sound silly MMT but have you thought of replying by saying 'I don't know what to say'? Please don't think of yourself as "this horrible creature". How can you be when you clearly love her so much and have tried so hard to resolve this situation.

MesMopTop Tue 05-Dec-17 15:03:49

Thankyou Yohagirl. I don't know ify daughter has a partner or any children. I know just about nothing of her life, where she lives, where she works, nothing. This situation has got me that I don't know what is real, imagined or what any more. Sometimes I feel like I'm a mouse and that the cat is just playing with me until it gets bored and decides to get rid of me. Sometimes I have some hope but what I read from her last night killed that hope. Then I think no, surely my lovely daughter would not do that to me. I just can't believe or understand the hate. If she would tell me what it was I had some that caused her to feel this wsy, then maybe I could start to understand and make it up to her. Other times I'm just done and afraid. I've nobody in RL I could discuss this with, and I don't want to burden my dear sweet husband, as he's had too much to deal with health wise but he knows something's wrong and is deeply troubling me. He says I have nightmares just about every night but thankfully I don't ever remember much. If it wasn't for him and our dog I would just want to go to sleep and not wake up. That's how bad it feels at times.

MesMopTop Tue 05-Dec-17 14:49:31

Thankyou starlady. I don't think she's with him now and I think she may be sharing a flat or house. I've asked her to tell me what she thinks was wrong in our relationship. I haven't said to her that I blamed her for anything, I've told her that I'd like to hear from her what I did wrong so that I could make amends but the reply she sent has just floored me. May sound strange, but it doesn't sound like the way she would speak, but she's more adult now. I have never felt anyone so cold as this, it just feels like a stranger. I really don't care if she thinks I'm the wrongdoer. All I wish for is my beautiful daughter back in her family's lives. I want her to be happy and I want he to be loved and feel love in her life. I haven't answered her yet because I'm scared. I'm scared I say the wrong thing and I'm scared I never have any contact from her again. And again, what kind of relationship would it be anyway, where I have to obey all her rules anyway. I feel either way, I've lost. It seems to me I've been given my own choice of poison. I only wanted her to know I love her unconditionally and that I wanted to make amends for whatever was hurting her. Way back in the early days she did say she was seeing someone about the cutting, which was my fault. I offered to go see this person, not sure if it was psychiatrist or psychologist, and they could ask me anything they needed to know. This was rejected. She was with the abusive BF at this time and with her when we met up in the city. All she wanted was some personal papers but didn't want to give me her address so I travelled to her in the city she lived in then. It's got me thinking that maybe I am this horrible cresture .

Tuppence15 Tue 05-Dec-17 10:34:59

My step son did this to us several years ago now. As we have “no contact” we cannot find out why. Other members of the family either do not know or have been told not to tell us why. I feel for my husband who has lost contact with his grandsons. I find this a very sad modern phenomenon.

Smileless2012 Tue 05-Dec-17 10:22:03

Well not wanting to burst your little bubble Sassenach that's a load of rubbish and if you've read any of the numerous posts about parents and GP's being CO you'd know better.

No one says it comes from 'no where' there are numerous examples of a once close and loving relationship between and AC and his/her parents falling apart once the AC marries or is in a committed relationship.

I hope you've read MesMopTop's post. The EP's and EGP's who post on GN do so from personal experience, giving as much personal insight into their situation as they feel comfortable with.

If you have personal experience of a toxic and narcissistic parent and wish to share you will believe me, find support here from parents and GP's not CO and from those that have been.

To post that all parents who are CO are toxic and narcissist is as offensive as saying that all AC who CO their parents are toxic and narcissist. Perhaps your post says more about you than you intended.

Oh MesMopTop I'm so very sorrytchsadand that seems such an inadequate thing to say in response to such a heart breaking postflowers.

FarNorth Tue 05-Dec-17 10:14:50

In the situation I meant, yogagirl, the Dil/SiL/partner doesn't actually do anything to deliberately cause cutting off.

The adult child finds that maintaining their relationship with their partner takes all their emotional energy.
They then can't cope with knowing that their parent is aware of the situation and believes that it should be improved.

The AC has given their loyalty to the partner so feels there is no option but to withdraw from the parent.

(I don't know your situation, yoga. It may well be very different to this.)

Yogagirl Tue 05-Dec-17 09:59:20

Support for Grans cut out of AC&GC lives

Yogagirl Tue 05-Dec-17 09:57:50

MesMopTop I feel for you flowers I'm in the same sad boat. Don't try to understand, there is no understanding this!
apart from drug taking. I know we have 'spoken' before, but have you been on 'our' page?

Yogagirl Tue 05-Dec-17 09:50:36

True Farnorth But in my case I [thought] got on alright with my s.i.l, till I was cut out!

Yogagirl Tue 05-Dec-17 09:47:36

Well said Fairydoll xx

Yogagirl Tue 05-Dec-17 09:46:14

Tell me Sassenach What planet do you live on?? confused take a look on the support thread for good, kind, loving Grandmothers 'cut out' of the lives of their precious, beloved AC&GC by their s.i.l/d.i.l. For why..jealousy!

Starlady Tue 05-Dec-17 04:00:15

Here, this is what I mean, particularly the "second level":

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pieces-mind/201204/understanding-validation-way-communicate-acceptance

Starlady Tue 05-Dec-17 03:57:02

OMG, MesMopTop - self-cutting and an abusive bf? Of course, there could be mental health issues! Idk if they would have been caused by him or led to her being with him. But has she gotten any kind of counseling?

Could she be with another controlling bf now? Cutting out all family is often a sign that a woman is being abused, as far as I know. Maybe not, but could it be?

Anyhow, my heart goes out to you! I'm so sorry that she has hurt you this way and sorry that she bristles at your expressing any of your own feelings. Maybe she needs to be sure that her feelings have been "heard" before she can listen to yours? Maybe do that thing where one just paraphrases what they think the other person has said? Like, "So you really feel I favored your sibling when you were growing up?" or "You felt ignored as a child" or whatever the issues are. Even if you feel her viewpoint is quite askew. No need to say if you agree or disagree with what she's saying (I get that you disagree), just let her know you hear it and are thinking about it. Have you tried anything like that? If not, do you think it could work?

Maybe it's silly, idk. It's just an idea that I somewhere, and I thought it might help.

MesMopTop Tue 05-Dec-17 01:52:26

I've dipped a toe into this dark place and already the light has switched on. I can identify with so much and I've only broken the surface. I cannot understand why, as adults, children that cut themselves off cannot accept absolutely any responsibility for their own actions and words. Total blamed is placed squarely on the mum. I accept that there are bad people out there, so many labels tossed about and I haven't read up on them all yet! I don't accept that one person in an adult relationship is 100% to blame for the breakdown. I read the OP words and can identify with much of what was said. I joyfully received a very long text from my own estranged adult child after I had sent countlessessages asking how we could resolve our issues. What I reD cut me to the nome and just crushed my heart and spirit. I love my child dearly and would givey last breath. I didn't recognise that this dreadful, evil person she spoke of was me. I cannot hand on heart agree her childhood was that horrific. I asked her to help me understand but I'm still at a loss as she couldn't even give me an example of any evil deed I had committed. Everything was laid down exactly as she wants it. I am not allowed to write and speak of feelings or ask questions, but writing to an email address is the only way I can contact her. I just don't understand why telling her that I love her and always will and asking how we can talk and resolve this situation could be vowed as manipulative, emotionally blackmailing, underhanded and have ulterior motives. How else can we "talk". All contact had been severed with aunts, uncles, grandparent and siblings as well as any other mutually known people. The whole family is deemed to be dysfunctional and unworthy. Tbh, I am now afraid to ask any questions or say what I think or feel as I have been told this is not acceptable. I have to accept my child's viewpoint completely, because everything that took place, happened, was said or done or whatever was completely my fault. I still do not know what it is that my child thinks I have done. I have searched my soul and my concience, I am only human and know I have made mistakes, however, everything I have ever done was done with complete love for my children. I love them both dearly. From the little I do know of her life after cutting me off, I know she was emotionally abused by her first boyfriend, badly. He controlled everything, and thinking back, this is where things really started to turn bad. I would honestly do anything to fix our relationship. I have asked her to help me understand where I went wrong and what I did that hurt her so badly. I haven't been defensive or told her the childhood/ young adulthood she recalls is nothing like that which I recall. I want to listen to and hear her, I want to understand but all I heard last night was "guilty" even though I don't know what I'm supposed to have done to make her feel that way. I'm sorry for hijacking and rambling. I think I'm still in shock but reading this just so struck me as what our situation is right now. I haven't replied to the text as I'm afraid to, I don't know how to say what I feel because I'm not permitted to voice these feeling. We don't see each other, I have no phone contact so all I have is words that I'm not allowed to write. She was always a beautiful, loving child so I am sure that love is still in there somewhere. It grieves me to think she is suffering, because she must be.i just wondered if there might be some mental health issues there. I know she did start cutting herself when she lived with that controlling boyfriend. I'm sorry for rambling and the confused post. I just don't know what to do or how to deal with this. Thankyou for your posts ladies, they help ?

FarNorth Tue 05-Dec-17 00:22:39

I think another reason could be if the adult child is in love with someone whom their parent believes does not treat them well or is not good enough in some way.

The parent may well be correct but the adult child in this situation may not see it, or may feel that they cannot cope with attempted help from their parent as well as keeping their relationship going.

Starlady Tue 05-Dec-17 00:19:15

Polyester, I'm sorry for what you went through with your mum. But there are "perfectly nice mothers" who have enough disagreements with their adult children that the children say, "No more!" and lower contact or go nc. Iv seen it on Mumsnet. While mum may never have been abusive, if she constantly argues with or criticizes her adult ds or dd or their spouses/partners, she could get co. It's not always about lies, neglect and abuse.

Funny thing, but on the estrangement thread a lady said that the ac who co their parents are often narcissistic. Could it be the other way sometimes (NOT saying that about your case)? Or maybe, sometimes, each side sees the other as "toxic" or whatever?

polyester57 Mon 04-Dec-17 22:52:05

We´ve been through all this before here. Believe me, narcissism does exist, narcissistic mothers exist and the best, the only thing, that you can do is go "no contact". I didn´t do this but so wish I had. Even though my mother is dead now I still go over my childhood in my mind and now see all the lies, the neglect, the abuse. It has nothing to do with perfectly nice mothers who have disagreements with their grown-up children.

Fairydoll2030 Mon 04-Dec-17 22:34:22

So, SassenachFraser, how would you explain one adult child in a family turning against their parents, while their siblings enjoy a close and loving relationship with (the same!) parents? Do the ‘narcissistic parents’ only maltreat one of their children? Or, have you you considered the possibility that mental health issues, drug taking, partner influences etc can change a once loving relationship between parents and child into a complete nightmare?
There are many examples on the Relationship thread where estrangement has occurred when different outside influences have come into play. You cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, always blame the parents,

MissAdventure Mon 04-Dec-17 21:31:24

There are disordered people in all generations.

SassenachFraser Mon 04-Dec-17 21:25:58

Sorry to burst your little bubble but when adult children leave and go no contact it isn't out of whim. People who grew up healthy in spirit do not abandon their loved ones out of nowhere. Loving children do not just go grey rock when a healthy relationship has been established. Much like a dog, if that dog has been abused it will show signs of trauma, weather the owner has realised its mistakes. A child does not grow up hating their healthy,normal,not so toxic parents, for no good reason at all. And the fact that adult parents can't understand this is the root if the problem. When a child has been abused, of course a Narcissistic parent will not correlate between the child leaving and the aftermath that comes with it.
When these adult children start to get rid of the toxic people in their lives, they can finally start looking for people who really worthy of their time and energy and love. Estranged children don't become estranged if they have no reason to. That's why there's happy people in the world. *Blood doesn't run thicker than water.*smile

Yogagirl Thu 23-Nov-17 09:16:58

OK Annsixty & VioletFloss of course not all mothers are nice, that's true. Having never been near such a person, it is hard to comprehend such a women. I got on with my in-laws, still very friendly with them now, after being divorced from their Son/brother for 25yrs! We always meet up for Xmas, Easter & Birthdays, we even go on holiday together & they all came to my second marriage! I got on with my second set of in-laws too, but as they live in Scotland, I don't see them anymore after divorce. I had 4 stepchildren & we all got on great, the children were best pals & still in contact, even with them all moving to the USA.
Monica I know only too well how one person can destroy a family, as my nasty s.i.l did just that! and I couldn't be busier with full time profession, I go dancing with friends when I'm not working & see my nice daughter & baby granddaughter at least twice per week & when they visit, it's for the day! But that big gapping hole where my once beloved Daughter & my precious GC should be, is as painful today as it was at the beginning, 5yrs ago, especially as it's my estD 28th Birthday today.

jeanie99 Thu 23-Nov-17 08:56:49

I had no idea that anything like this was going on in England, this is heartbreaking, thank god I still have my family intact.
Families don't agree with each other on everything, life would be boring if we did.
We bring our children up to be thinking individuals with respect for others view points.

M0nica Wed 22-Nov-17 20:01:15

I agree, should, but a number don't. On some threads on GN you get some GPs saying how their DGC are their whole lives and seem to have no occupations or interests beyond their grandchildren So while I can truly understand the pain and agony of estrangement and that it is hard to think beyond it, you need to do this.

We have had several tragic threads on GN over the last few weeks of GN members whose children or spouse have died since the beginning of November. The thing that I noticed with all the associated threads, was that through the devastation and pain which was so new, and death is so irrevocable, there shone through a determination to keep going. One thread was called The first day of the rest of my life I think some of the estranged families could learn a lot from those bereaved.

Norah Wed 22-Nov-17 18:41:17

M0nica, I would submit that all GPs should have a full life, interests, friends, and hobbies, no matter their relationship with their grandchildren.

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