Can mother refuse to allow me to see grandchild after divorce?

Thankyou, Muffininthemoo.
No money for a lawyer! He now has the original family mortgage, and the rent on the flat. I offered to pay and did in fact pay a fair bit of an earlier stage in the divorce, but his ex-wife took out a divorce package and he decided he wanted just to do it all himself. The court is actually making him pay, in addition, for half the costs of his ex-wife's divorce package! He didn't ask her to sign up for it, so he's paying towards her legal costs but has no money for his own.
I would still fund the action you say, but as others have remarked, a court order wouldn't make any difference and I think his motives are to keep things low profile. In the end it's his marriage and he knows his ex best. Any ramping up would get returned in spades. She, too, has lost a husband. At the outset of their relationship, when the elder child was born, she said, 'No child of mine will ever grow up without a father' (as she did). Ironic, eh?

Dear MagicWriter2016
The younger granddaughter does want to see me. Otherwise I wouldn't be so worried about her emotional welfare. She has said so to her dad, and to me in the short phonecall we had where she told me she hadn't seen me for a year and she was upset about that and loved me. It's certainly not the case as you suggest it might be.
Of course teenagers will have better things to do than see grandparents, which is why these years 10-12 are such a crucial gap.
I have been extremely careful not to mention the girls' mother to them except to ask how she is, as she has a back problem. I know full well you don't say anything adverse against a child's mother!
Thanks for your other suggestions. They would be good to follow but her mother rang me after the dismissal-by-text to say never ever to contact her daughter again. Or else! A little offputting.
The best one with this 15-year-old older daughter is to do as you suggest: either she will return to visit me (she used to walk over on her own account, over a mile, to visit us out of the blue. That was lovely), accept she is a very sociable busy schoolgirl and teenager, and see if things change. Thanks for your thoughts.

Forgive me for coming back on this, as I have inadvertently given a callous impression by the way I expressed what had happened with my eldest granddaughter.
'Let her go' was meant to mean that I have had to do just that in practice, as she instructed me to, and despite a nice letter and the passage of time she has not changed her mind nor communicated. I have no choice but to accept her wish but hope one day she will come round. It doesn't mean the heartache, loss and love are not still there, but at the same time she is old enough to know that we were very good grandparents to her, very much part of her life, and she has hurt us although we try to understand the understandable. As for disowning her own father, and causing him so much undeserved pain too, I hope one day she reflects upon that.
Before we lost her, she had become quite abusive to me, pretty rude, saying I was old disparagingly on every possible occasion, and rather indicating she patterned on her mother, for whom this was regular behaviour. 'Let her go' was something she initiated and has stuck to, not our wish.
I just hope it won't happen by default with the younger daughter, but I have just seen my son, and those of you who questioned his responses will be pleased to know I have 'booked' him for tonight after his father's visit to discuss where we go from here, about which you have been so helpful.
I gave him her birthday gifts and he offered to put her on his mobile when she opened them today, but I said know because she is a very obedient girl and has shown before she gets racked by guilt about what she sees as going against her mother's rules.
I hope there is nothing further said in this post which gives rise to any more misinterpretation. I believe in family and to see so many fracturing these days is tragic, but sometimes you have no say in it, which is why Gransnet is such a support.

I hate to say this, but could it be the grand daughter that doesn’t want to see you. I know that my three grand daughters will go through stages where they don’t want to see their other granny, because she wouldn’t let them do x or give them x. Am sure they say the same about me at times. It’s a funny age, hormones running rampant. Has your grand daughter ever heard you say something unkind about her mum? They might appear deaf when you ask them something, but can hear a whisper at 50 yards! They don’t want to appear disloyal to the parent they are with at that moment in time. I would just try and stay calm, remain civil to the mum and you could even try sending a letter to your grand daughter, telling her your news, asking for her news, not mentioning how you want to see her unless she asks you why you haven’t been near her recently, and try and keep everything neutral. You could say her mum and dad are still working things out. It’s difficult, but just keep being there, in the back ground and as she gets older she will make her own choices.

Inname, my heart goes out to you! I feel for ds, too,, and his fear of being cut off from his child. I suspect he didn't get a child arrangement because he didn't have or didn't want to spend the money, but he doesn't want to tell you that. If xdil is this hateful, it's also possible he's guilty about something (cheating on her or whatever), but that shouldn't stop him getting a child arrangement. He has to come to this realization himself, of course. Hopefully, in time, xdil will relax and ds will have a little more leeway. I know it's hard, but I agree you should back off, for now, and be patient. Hugs!

^ "should NOT be an arrangement"

Sorry, I was thinking faster than I typed

Absolutely spot on muffinthemoo. Sound sensible advice and cuts through to what the current impasse is all about.

Okay, here's roughly the situation.

Your son, and I am sorry if this is disrespectful, is a damn fool if he is divorcing and is not insisting on a (negotiated) arrangement for contact with his daughters.

There are absolutely no circumstances, regardless of how amicable the divorce is, in which there should be an arrangement (ideally negotiated to be mutually acceptable) to determine the children's residence, their contact arrangements and any other issues such as foreign holiday permission etc.

Your son is leaving himself a pure hostage to fortune as he cannot even use the court order as leverage to make contact happen. Your DIL has absolutely no need to comply with his wishes at all.

He badly needs a new lawyer, or indeed any lawyer ASAP to sort out this crap. Why is he being so passive about this?

It is not the fault of the family courts that there is no order if he's not even seeking one. he needs a rocket put up him

Thank you Ruby41. Will take a forlorn look.

How right you are, Nannypiano. This is exactly the scenario I imagine and read about.
And the lost years - so true. My DIL has genned up on the rules and when my GD is 16 she cannot refuse her contact - but by them will I know her? 5 years will have gone by. I might be dead (problem solved).
Your mention of one returning as an adult is at least some hope.
And what a rotten system the divorce courts run. I feel so very sorry for all the ousted dads.

I did get along with both girls. I want to correct that impression, LiveLaughLove. Very well indeed. And I do care about her, but I have to respect the choice she has made, and it's one that only she can reverse, should she wish to, one day. And I would just hug her. I hear a few bits and pieces about her and am hoping that the idea of university I planted the seed of, will take fruit, and I would be delighted. We don't know why she cut off her father. She just met him for coffee and told him, later texting me the same message. She said she was sorry but that was what she wanted to do. We were not in a position to discuss it with her. As for her mother, why do people say I am evil towards her? Ridiculous. I funded part of their flat purchase, bought them household items, always sent birthday and Christmas gifts, and (I am a genealogist) even found her unknown father. Part of her bitterness is never having met her father. And he didn't know she even existed. I paid for the DNA proof too. Evil or what? But it explains some of her attitude. Unfortunately, six months later her father cut off contact with her as his wife was beginning to think he was still in a relationship with her mother. Only case that has ever happened to me and it had to be to her. She was beyond upset and was on the phone a lot to me then.
So please don't assume things about people being 'evil'. If it was kinder not to see my granddaughter, believe me, I would live with that.
I have two other granddaughters from my other sons, aged 4. They are horrified at the situation and have promised me if anything ever happened they would never ever stop us seeing our grandchildren. One of them also reported to me only this month about a visit to them from the son in question, then wife and daughters, and how horrified she was by the extreme rudeness both mother and elder daughter displayed to my son. Actually, elder daughter actually raised a fist to this DIL. As a wider family, we are all pretty shocked.
But the 13-year-old in question is very big-hearted, so different. Her older sister shares a bedroom with her but refuses to speak to her (for the doubters I know this as it gets told by her to her father who tells me and she is as honest as the day is long). A caring listening grandparent would enrich her life.
I hope that clears a few misconceptions up.

Bibbity - you're wonderful. He knows he is weak, but he is so terrified of being denied contact with his remaining daughter. Can you imagine how it feels to have a much-loved daughter cut off contact with him and even change her name? He had to consent to that because he said if he didn't she would hate him more. One day in her own time she may come round.
One thing I would like to say, is that my comfort is the memory of all those years of love and laughter and fun with those two granddaughters and no one can ever take that away.
My son is 41 and rather determined to lead his life and make his own decisions, which is frustrating as they may not be right and he hasn't used a solicitor. He is also quite secretive and prone to disguising the truth - always has been! so those of you who sussed that out, well done.
But you never stop loving your kids.
I will speak to him tomorrow when I see him on Visiting Day before the pick-up, when I will also give him my granddaughter's present for her 13th birthday.
I can't, though, override him.
Do you know, ladies, once he called with his elder daughter (when he was seeing her) at an open day I was at, and his separated wife rang up screaming that if he didn't bring the daughter home straight away she's call the police! I just hugged them both and cried. And they left.
Still, onwards and upwards.

Your message means a lot to me. So very kind, GrandmainOz.

In the nicest way possible your son needs to grow a pair and stand up to her.

I can’t believe he won’t let his partner near his daughter either. This is getting ridiculous.
The child is 13. Court would be a very swift affair.
He doesn’t need to communicate with his Ex anymore.
Pick up the child take her home to see his partner and see you.
Tell him to just do it.
The more he cowers and beds to her will the more damage he is causing his relationship with his child.

Does he want history to repeat itself?
Yes. Things may be difficult at the start. But he’s supposed to be a parent. That’s difficult.

I really hope it all gets sorted for you and GD soon.

That's exactly how it should be jaylee if I have the name right. I am divorced myself and always spoke well to my then teenage sons about their dad and kept their relationship going. You simply don't use your own children's emotional welfare as a weapon.

To Bibby.
Thank you again. That’s just what I wanted to clarify.
I would be willing to pay for this but all the online advice is that it makes the situation worse. You can't win. The child would get it in the neck and that would be unfair on her.
I think I will try to get my son to persuade his ex. That’s pie in the sky but you never know.
Mental health is important and that loved girl has been punished for simply being my granddaughter.
By the way all you people who have accused me of being evil! My son's new partner is also banned. So he has nowhere to take his daughter on visit days.
We used to have both girls once a week and they were both the light of our lives.

Thank you. Yes agree about causing her more stress and wouldn't do that.
Elder granddaughter just gradually rejected her dad, who was a good dad, at 14. Just beforehand she had come by herself to see me and we'D had the usual loving chat. Then she met her father to tell him she couldn't see him again and then sent me a text to say the same to us.
We used to have them here for days and take them all sorts of places they otherwise wouldn't have gone to and gave them so much fun and love.
We never said a word against their mum and she was also welcome here and in the early days used to come.
It was a very fraught marriage and we are the casualties simply for being the father's parents.

The divorce documents wouldn’t deal with the children at all.
The only time they may be mentioned is with regards to the plans for the family home.

Eg mother resides in property until youngest child is 18 at which point it will be sold.

He would need to go to court for a specific child arrangements order. Do you know if he did this?

Thank you ReadyMeals. Yes that thought has occurred to me but the extra factor is that she loves and misses me and her husband and she is suffering. This is emotional abuse.

Chucky that is shocking.
We were very close to both girls. The elder one cut off contact with all her father's side, even her 92 year old great grandmother whom she saw very rarely. I think it was because her parents were rude to each other when together and the stress was more than she could cope with.
The rest of your message I can assure you is not true. And not worthy of a reply.

Thank you Bibbity. Encouraging. What I can't seem to discover is if there are ANY father's contact rights built in. Apparently these were dropped in 2014. Grrrrr. I need to see his court papers. Guess I will just have to wait until the Absolute comes through.
He's too timorous. Got it in his head that if his daughter sees me the mother will refuse him contact. And she could and then he would have to go to court. He has no money but neither does she. My granddaughter is also intimidated by her mother anD would be consumed with worry.
Time will tell.

It's far more important for this little girl to be able to see her father without drama and hassle than it is for her to see you. If you insisting on seeing her is going to make things difficult in her access to her father, then it might be better if you can be strong enough to keep back out of it.

Best advice ever from ReadyMeals. I totally agree with Chucky too, and I'm not too sure what kind of a relationship your hoping for/expecting to have with a granddaughter whose mother you don't get along with, whose sibling you don't get along with either and don't seem to even care about, and whose father won't even facilitate any contact with you either. I'd honestly start fixing a few fences if I were you.

What happened with your older granddaughter? Why did she change her name and cut out her father as well as his side of the family? And how old was she when she did that?

Innameonlyto4

“There's an older daughter. She cut her father out and all his side of the family, even changing her name by deed poll. Well she can go. Fine way to repay our huge input, but her sister is suffering from this cruelty.”
To say that about your gd, in any circumstances, is absolutely vile! It’s no wonder your dil doesn’t want you to have any contact with your other gd. If she can go because she has taken her mother’s side, I presume the same can be said for her sister if she ends up not wanting any contact either?

“The problem is the child is frightened of her mother”
And you know this how??? You haven’t had any contact, apart from a few seconds on the phone, for 18 months! I very much doubt it’s her mother she is frightened of!

“The hatred from my DIL is entrenched and has lasted even as far back as before my granddaughter's birth. I have not returned the hatred”
You aren’t coming across as a very nice person in this thread. It appears that you think that all problems are because of your dil. You are happy to bin anyone off (even your own gd) if they have the nerve to not see things your way! If this is not the case, why has your older gd, who presumably is old enough to see you if she wants, cut you as well as her df out of her life! What has happened, or what has she seen to feel like this? Perhaps your other gd was too young to know the reasons for all this hatred!

I would really love to hear your dil’s side of this, as there are always 2 sides to every tale, and I suspect that she tells a very differeent tale than you do.

I am not saying your dil is 100% in the right, but please take a good look at yourself and your son, to see if you can see any reason for this animosity. If you can see where you may be to blame.
Also, ask yourself why (apart from thinking it’s all dil’s fault) your elder gd feels like this! She must have her reasons. Irrespective of anything else, how can you bin her off like this?

This is going to sound like I am being rude but I really don't mean it rudely, but here goes: It's far more important for this little girl to be able to see her father without drama and hassle than it is for her to see you. If you insisting on seeing her is going to make things difficult in her access to her father, then it might be better if you can be strong enough to keep back out of it. I hope your son can get photos and videos of his time with her without telling anyone he's going to send them to you? And maybe you could buy her gifts that he can photograph her playing with, again without telling them who they're from if that's an issue.

Your son is the person who is deceiving you here; the mother cannot dictate who her daughter sees when she is in the custody of her father, and she certainly cannot prevent him from having access to their daughter if she does visit you.
She may threaten, she may attempt to carry this out, but legally he has the right to see his daughter and be responsible for her, and he has to assert these rights.Sounds as though he can't be bothered.
Individually, you do not have the right to see your grand daughter, but as father he is able to allow you to do this.