Can mother refuse to allow me to see grandchild after divorce?

Thankyou, Muffininthemoo.
No money for a lawyer! He now has the original family mortgage, and the rent on the flat. I offered to pay and did in fact pay a fair bit of an earlier stage in the divorce, but his ex-wife took out a divorce package and he decided he wanted just to do it all himself. The court is actually making him pay, in addition, for half the costs of his ex-wife's divorce package! He didn't ask her to sign up for it, so he's paying towards her legal costs but has no money for his own.
I would still fund the action you say, but as others have remarked, a court order wouldn't make any difference and I think his motives are to keep things low profile. In the end it's his marriage and he knows his ex best. Any ramping up would get returned in spades. She, too, has lost a husband. At the outset of their relationship, when the elder child was born, she said, 'No child of mine will ever grow up without a father' (as she did). Ironic, eh?

Yes, but the "court order won't make any difference" I believe was in the context of you, as a grandparent, trying to get an order for direct contact with the granddaughters.

A court order for HIM as the father does make a difference. Yes, sometimes custodial parents are real d*cks about honouring the orders for custody and contact, but at this point he has NO order protecting ANY contact with his girls.

I know I seem fixated with this, but what does he do if the divorce proceedings close and his ex announces "that's it, f*k off, neither of them are ever going to speak to you again"? He doesn't even have any order to try and enforce at that point. He is starting from a blank slate, and the first thing the court will ask is, why was no order agreed by the parties at the time of the divorce?

He now has the original family mortgage, and the rent on the flat.

I’m really starting to believe that your son is beginning to orchestrate his own misery.
Has he discussed selling the property? He doesn’t need a lawyer for CAO. It’s under £300 for the filing and as it’s all straight forward he will get visitation. He can self represent.

He needs to find some passion, some drive and some want to actually fix this because I think you and the GD want this all resolved more than him.

There is definitely parts of the story your son is leaving out, as this doesn’t add up.

It’s sounding like he’s trying to lose access, but doesn’t want to be thought of as a deadbeat

Summerlove. Too much juggling going on here. Daughter and partner didn't take to one another. Partly because she was threatened by the wife early on when she was with my son in the car to collect his daughter. Shouting through the window sort of delightful streetside scenario. She wants a baby of her own but he doesn't. I am going to talk to him tonight about getting these two together bit by bit. He certainly doesn't want to lose access. He adores Josie. He's been heartbroken, depressed. I had him living with us for two years in a terrible state, and then he met his partner. She is really good for him but the daughter is an issue. Once again, Josie feels bad that she was meeting someone her mother despises. She really is piggy in the middle. My son may sound disengaged, but really he is protecting his heart from further trauma. Poor dads and divorce.

Bibbity: that was gone through, and he felt his children 'would hate him even more' if they lost their tiny little flat. Financial arrangements now agreed with Cafcass etc and gone through court. The house can be sold when youngest is 18 - 6 years' time. How do you stand on your own two feet when the courts have kicked your legs out from under you?
I will broach the court order side to him if I get a chance when I see him tonight. Thanks again, Bibbity. You have good, constructive ideas.

Muffinthemoo. You see it as it would be - exactly. Which is why I started posting here. I never anticipated being able to suddenly go and collect my granddaughter from her house - that way madness lies. I only wanted my son to bring her to see us or go out together.
I believe it was in 2014 that the law changed so that children's arrangements were not included with the absolute conditions but you had to get an access order separately. And he could do that. Providing we don't get the scenario you can foresee, the situation gets worse, and he has to keep going back to court when the order is transgressed.

The courts can say that the house won’t be sold but he can’t force a sale however he doesn’t have to pay for the whole mortgage!!

The kids won’t get him and if they do they are children. You don’t allow children to dictate such matters.
Get him to explain that mum and dad are no longer together and so everything has to be seperated.
He needs money and so he needs to pay for his own place and mum needs to pay for hers.
I can’t imagine how frustrating this must be for you. You’re not asking for a lot but no one is helping.

I really, really don't want you to think I am having a go at your son - I'm not, but I just want to think clearly about this - the default position in a family separation re custody and access is 50/50 custody.

Your son has, as I understand it, a flat in which he lives and therefore somewhere to keep the girls on his custody time.

Is there a reason that he seems to have given up on any custody arrangement at all and to be focusing only on access?

Because even a cr*p-tier custody arrangement is every-other-weekend. You haven't mentioned any substance problem or homelessness, or any other reason he shouldn't have custody time.

You do indeed need to get the order for the children separately, but they can - and usually are - agreed at the same time between the parties and granted at the same time. There has obviously been an agreement made about the financial provision on divorce, so there has obviously been some sort of negotiation taking place.

Exactly as you say, I appreciate you know him, and DIL, and the girls, and I don't know any of them. So there are no doubt reasons he's choosing not to pursue any arrangements order, but... it's difficult to see from an anonymous internet perspective why.

There is absolutely no reason in law whatsoever that he couldn't do as he pleased with his children on his own custody time, including visiting you, unless there were child welfare concerns brought before the court.

I am honestly not trying to give you any sort of a hard time here. I'm just trying to check that you and son have thought of everything in this scenario, since like you say, he is proceeding without benefit of legal representation.

Has he been to court regarding the children then?
CAFCASS wouldn’t be involved in a divorce but would a CAO.

Muffinthemoo. You are giving so much help.
No substance abuse etc. He's in constant good employment.
His flat has 2 beds. 2nd one is sublet but there is a bed settee too.
The reason he complies with wifey is he feels over the barrel. Do as I say or you will not see your daughter at all!
I will be better armed tonight and another exciting chapter will be on its way. Maybe.

True.

It's housing association. Wife pays the rental %, he pays the mortgage on the other half, which is more than half I think. Financial Order has gone through so can't be changed now. The divorce is going to be Absolute any minute.

Bibbity: sorry. At the beginning of the separation he did get some sort of directive about how much he had to pay in child maintenance. Which he pays. The start of this stop-start divorce is so long ago now that I don't know the nature of that assessment.

Update. First of all, my granddaughter loved her present today and drew me a picture with a message to say she loves and misses us. This is how important this subject is in her whole future life.
My son listened very closely. He seemed not to have thought about the fact that as Bibbity said his ex-wife could get the Absolute then at any time after tell him to f* off. At no stage during the pre-court mediation was any access arrangement even mentioned. Rather than go to court for an order he is initially going to contact his ex in a conciliatory way and try to become more involved with his children, whilst at the same time trying to get his partner to agree that his daughter should also, at least for a short while, be able to come to his flat. Their relationship is volatile but it may all be tangled up in this mess.
I also asked him to write to his elder daughter, whether or not she responded at all or with hostility, commenting on her very good school performance and any other matters. Everything to be along the lines of building bridges.
I read correspondence going back to 2016 from his now ex-wife, and I can see that although she was very difficult, she was fighting to keep him involved with his children. I asked him to write to her in a spirit of recognition of what she has done in raising them, under duress, and basically butter her up but not insincerely, just try to get everyone, ex, daughters, partner, building bridges. I also noticed a message instructing us, the grandparents, not to have any contact ever again with her or her daughters, so it's all as bitter as could be, but time does ease things.
I told him he has no rights but neither does she in banning contact with our side of the family - there are, after all, aunts, uncles and cousins as well all left out - and if she did implement the threat to stop him taking his daughter out then it would be a court access agreement. With him - not us.
Hope must live on and fundamentally we are fighting for a young girl's wellbeing.
So, very receptive.

OP that letter is lovely.
I really hope things get resolved for you soon.

Op you have let us know the Dgd 's name and her handwriting. Please ask gnhq to delete those posts in case your dil or a relative is on here and recognises it. It could only make things worse for the child.

Hello everybody
Just an update. Basically nothing's changed. My son was very good and took on board all you had said about the mother having no right to prevent contact. He had not known this.
As it happens, a golden opportunity arose and the mum rang him seeking to get on a better footing. That was commendable - but only on her terms. Pity he didn't accept as he could have played a softly, softly game, but he agreed then raised the subject of contact with me, and I am afraid that all hell broke loose apparently. That was out of the question. He ended up putting the phone down saying 'see you in court'.
But he won't. From all that I read online a court order would be a pyrrhic victory. And the very child I wish to see would almost certainly be paralysed with fear knowing how enraged her mother would be.
I think all I can do is to try to get my son to persuade his ex, but I rather fear she is made of tougher stuff, and frankly, he has had enough of her. At least for his kids' sake he could take up Part 1 of the request, and hope Part 2 comes along.
Alternatively, his daughter could keep asking, but she is frightened, with reason, and it seems unfair to put this on her.
Meanwhile the elder, estranged daughter has developed a nasty spinal abscess, just before her exams. I sent her a card and a note, but it disappeared into the abyss of silence, which I expected, but that's down to her. I also asked my son to do the same. He is away this last two weeks, out of the country, but I will try again when I see him.

Hello all. You must be getting tired of this. Further update: I decided to write a very nice letter to my DIL asking if we could see my granddaughter. I said she was very fond of us and I was concerned about her being unhappy not being able to see us. The past was the past and we wanted to put the past behind us, offered help, etc etc.
Response: long and icy diatribe about my son, whom we didn't even mention, but whom she plainly says is telling me lies. Laced with plenty of accusations against his value as a father etc etc and then lots about how well and happy the girls are, school so successful and how many compliments she receives about how she is bringing them up.
Oh - and the get well card I sent to the elder daughter was put in the recycling bin.
The letter concludes with making it clear we 'have no need to contact her again.'
Par for the course.
I am not sure whether to tell my son I wrote or what the reply was. He has had so much abuse from his ex it would be putting coals on the fire.
I guess I must accept I will not see my granddaughters until they are old enough to act independently and also endure any retaliation from mum. And just get used to the fact I cannot do a thing about this. Court orders would be hell.
Thank you every one of you for the time and thought you put into your answers, trying to help.

I should have said, no reply
was made to the actual request to see our granddaughter! But there is no doubt at all that it is a no.

You come across as being a very conniving, manipulative and controlling individual. First you wish that your son "played the game softly," then you send DIL letters behind his back and when things don't go your way now you ponder on whether or not you should have told your son? Why couldn't you have respected him enough to get his input on all of this prior to inserting yourself into all of this? She said your son was lying to you, a sentiment that some readers non here shared too from reading your post alone. Have you considered the fact that your son isn't being honest with you? And may choose to distance himself from you if he learns that you contacted his ex wife who provided you with information on him that he didn't want you to be privy to? Despite you calling them lies and terming him as a victim of abuse? Step back and mind your own business. Your son already said he'd see her in court. Why couldn't you respect this considering that these are his children and not yours?

I have met a number of children who are very frightened of their parent/parents so I think it is unfair to dismiss the OPs suggestion that that is a possibility.

Innameonlyto4 I do agree with others that you need to pin your son down a bit on exactly what the arrangements are , what has been agreed, reasons given for the decisions made etc etc! He may or may not have been honest with you and you need to know. The legal route is likely to push your DIL into even more determination to block contact ….and you son is the one who can sort this, legally or otherwise.

Good luck

I have met a number of children who are very frightened of their parent/parents so I think it is unfair to dismiss the OPs suggestion that that is a possibility

I'm sure her adult child is extremely scared of her for a lot of what she states on here with regards to his story just doesn't make any sense. He seems to be hiding a lot of stuff from his mother, but OP continuously has too many excuses for him and seems to want access to his children more than her own son does. Why hasn't he pursued custody? This question has been asked several times and OP at all times has successfully managed to deflect from it by passing the blame to her ex-DIL. Tell your son to purse custody and you can visit with his children during his custody time. Not sure why you're complicating this.

I am not posting on here any more. I have had a good deal of constructive responses, but others who are personally insulting. When life gives you grief, you really can do without that.
Situation is resolved now: there can be no contact, so please keep your bile and misinformation and incorrect assumptions to yourselves.

Well, I hope my comments are not "incorrect assumptions." But I have a feeling that ds (dear son) was trying to shirk some of his involvement with his dds, at some point, maybe because of his new partner and how she feels. I say this because you told us that his xw (ex-wife) was trying to get him more involved with the girls and that he had to ask his partner if it would be ok for your gds to come to their flat. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I just feel there is a lot dsYhasn't told you (nor does he have to).

Anyway, I suspect dil wants to keep your gds away from you out of anger at ds, and that is so sad and wrong, imo. The almost-13-year-old seems to still love you, however, so hopefully, she will seek you out when she is old enough to do so without mum's permission. Maybe the older girl will, too. 6 years may seem like a very long time, but I imagine they will fly by faster than you think. Meanwhile, please fill your life with other pursuits. You may not still be posting here, but if you're still reading, hugs!