Support for all who are living with estrangement

Oh dear Smileless never to have seen them is very hard I think.

for anyone feeling the loss today.

It was very hard in the beginning Ginny. We saw the eldest a handful of times until he was 8 months old and have seen the youngest.

It's been more than 6 years now and the passage of time does make a huge difference, well it has for us.

I can't imagine how painful it must be for all of you who have memories of the times you spent with your GC, the things you did and wondering what to do with the little keepsakes and reminders you have in your homes.

It's a beautiful evening here, the sky is blue as is the sea which we can see from our roof terrace.

The white walls of our roof terrace are adorned with the beautiful wall and hanging baskets courtesy of Mr. S., and we've just had a lovely BBQ.

Life is good and we're happy. More than 6 years ago I never thought we could be again, but we are.

Have a good evening ladies. There is a light at the end of the estrangement tunnel and no matter how faint it may be, go toward it. Even if you can't see it, believe me it's there, and you will find it; eventually.

Thank you smileless - can't tell you how much that helps. So good to hear you are happy.

Speaking of lost memories.. Again my ES told his father that his sister never apologized to him about this stupid argument on my birthday almost two years ago. Well I gave the receipts. YES I sent his father ( my X) the text messages from her saying she was sorry she hit his hand away from his face. Never heard a thing from my X. And we are celebrating mom’s 90 th on Sunday and even though my DH texted ES too we have heard nothing. My mother gave him money a few months ago and she can’t even get a Happy Mother’s Day . I’m STILL angry about this childish game he’s playing. No job for a year and still living with his dad. And why is dad allowing this? You know it’s like he’s living with his abuser.. The Stockholm Syndrome. This is the man who choked him as a kid after throwing him up against the wall. One of the reasons I divorced. And he goes to him and lives with him. Where are the memories of his dad’s abuse?
And why am I still mad about my ESS? I hate having this anger.

And one thing more. The last thing we all need on this site is verbal abuse . We are all living in our own hell with estrangement. We need support and kindness and understanding. We don’t have to agree but just listen and be supportive.

Selective memories perhaps Rhinestone. I've been in contact with several estranged mothers over the years, who left their abusive husbands to protect their children as well as themselves and struggled as a single parent family to do the best they could.

They've found themselves cut out and have to live with the knowledge that their child(ren) are having a relationship with the father who used to abuse them. Where GC are involved, they too are having a relationship with their parent's abusive father.

The anger will pass in time Rhinestone and until it does, let it wash over you like a wave. The wave doesn't last forever but eventually disperses; until the next time.

That's how I tried to think of my anger toward ES and his wife. I knew I couldn't stop feeling that way, so accepted that that particular emotion was just one of so many inevitable ones that estrangement brings.

I still feel angry, but nothing like as often as I used too and it's no where near as intense as it used to be.

hugshelp x

Rhinestone

I think the key here is to remember that to him, that's his dad. I read something in the book "Toxic Parents" that really resonated with me. I think it's the reason that we hear about St. GFIL of Blessed Memory from FIL, and it could be the reason your son is with his father.

For a child to admit that their parent was abusive, is for the child to admit that their entire childhood was not safe. When you examine Maslow's hierarchy of needs, safety and security is one of the most basic needs, second only to food, water, and shelter. Admitting that an abusive parent was abusive is admitting that one's more basic need for safety was not met. That's very hard for a child to do. It's also important to keep in mind that no abusive parent abuses 24/7. I'm not saying the abuse never happened or that it wasn't horrific. Rather, I'm saying that abuse occurs in cycles. Our brains are conditioned to remember positive memories better than negative ones. It's entirely possible that your son has blocked out much of the abuse as a coping mechanism and that he honestly doesn't remember much of it.

I'm not saying that it's right. I can understand that you would be devastated. I'm just explaining that there may be some reasons for his behaviour.

An interesting point agnurse which raises another question.

If "safety and security is one of the most basic needs, second to only, water and shelter, (and) admitting that an abusive parent was abusive is admitting that one's more basic need for safety was not met. That's very hard for a child to do." Why does it appear to be in many cases of estrangement, not that hard for some estranging AC to lie and portray their parents as abusive in order to justify their behaviour?

Maybe reading a book on "Toxic Adult Children" could offer some insight.

Sorry to hear you're struggling with anger Rhinestone but it is a natural response. It's perfectly normal to feel angry about being treated badly. I think Smileless's advice to let some of it just wash over you is excellent. My counsellor first introduced me to the idea of standing in the shower and imagining the water running down my arms to my fingertips and letting the anger/pain drip off my fingers and down the drain.

Just a practical thought. As your ES hasn't worked for a long time, is he with his F because he's prepared to support him financially because he (F) feels guilty about abusing him as a boy? So the two are sort of dependent on each other, e.g. The son feels his father owes him something and the father feels guilty about the earlier abuse.

Think of Smileless's idea of waves washing over you and let the pain ebb away, a little like the tide going out. xx

Ginny42....^Just a practical thought. As your ES hasn't worked for a long time, is he with his F because he's prepared to support him financially because he (F) feels guilty about abusing him as a boy? So the two are sort of dependent on each other, e.g. The son feels his father owes him something and the father feels guilty about the earlier abuse. ^

IMV this sounds like the most likely ( or the closest one can get ) to what's happening at an emotional level.

Smileless….I'm glad you made that comparison Even though I'm trying to ignore!
Carry on enjoying your view and everything else that brings you joy!!

Rhinestone....

Yes, Rhinestone, I agree w/ Smileless and Namsmanny. It may be convenient for ES to live with (live off of?) his dad, but, IMO, he's also making him "pay" for the past, figuratively as well as literally. And your X is probably hoping this somehow makes up for the abuse (which, of course, it doesn't).

Agnurse, I totally appreciate what you're saying. I think it's terribly irresponsible, though, if they expose their kids to the abuser. But I guess if they've suppressed or minized the abuse in their minds, they don't see the abusive parent as such a threat to their child.

Smileless, IDK, but I imagine if an AC is lying about abuse, they don't feel as if it means their childhood wasn't safe, etc. - b/c they're making it all up. Also, no doubt, some people do remember and acknowledge any abuse. IMO, agnurse's comments only apply to some abuse survivors, and may apply to Rhinestone's ES, even though I think your analysis of that situation is more likely.

Rhinestone, again, IDK, I'm no therapist, etc., but could the anger be part of the grief at losing these 2 relationships?

Oops! I just realized it was Ginny who first suggested that ES and XH are feeding off each other's needs, not Smileless. Sorry for the mixup, ladies!

Meanwhile, Rhinestone, I'm no therapist, but is it possible that your anger is part of your grief over these 2 lost relationships?

Please don't get me wrong. I'm NOT comparing the loss of relationships to that of any actual son or daughter. But I do think people suffer a kind of bereavement over a lost relationship, even if it's not on the same level as the actual loss of a person. And since, apparently. anger is one of the stages of grief, IMO, that could explain it. Also, apparently, the so-called "stages" of grief come and go in waves, which goes along w/ Smileless' comments.

Regardless, hope the bad feelings lose their intensity very soon.

Ginny, love the shower analogy!

Thank you all so much for your insight and support. I have a friend that last month lost her husband and two weeks later one of her children. I sat at the funeral and told myself I had nothing to feel sorry about. That this situation my friend was in was the worst.
Yet you are all correct..the anger comes and goes in waves . I don’t know how you did it Smilelessliving down the street from ES when its killing me having my ES fifteen minutes away from where I live.
My DD tells me my ES used to run and hide under the bed when he thought my X was mad at him. What I left out was that my X remarried ( he’s divorced again now )and had two more children who are both in successful careers. My ES never got the chance to live with my X as his step siblings did so maybe that has something to do with it. My X would NEVER admit abuse so I’m not sure he feels guilty. But he is paying for everything. He wanted me to help set him up in an apartment but I won’t throw money at a problem or give anyone money who treats me badly. And he doesn’t have a job. I worry so because my brother is a recluse bring out of his apartment once in the last year and I’m afraid my ES is heading that way. Thank you all again

rhinestone, I’m curious if I’m reading this correctly.

Your ES is saying his sister never apologized to him.

You have text messages showing that you sent your ex a text saying that your daughter apologized.

Did she reach out to him personally? If not, I can see how he’d said she hadn’t.

Or, did your daughter send you a screen shot of her text to your ES, and you sent that to ex?

Either way, it’s best that you not try to manage their relationship any longer - it really has nothing to do with you at this stage. Perhaps if your son doesn’t feel you are fighting in his sisters corner, he might start to soften?

Yes, I was wondering, too, if DD sent an apology to ES directly or tried to do it through you or only told you she was sorry, Rhinestone. Sorry if I'm getting that part of the story confused.

"I worry so because my brother is a recluse bring out of his apartment once in the last year and I’m afraid my ES is heading that way."

You mean DB (dear brother) suffers from agoraphobia? I believe there's help for that if he's willing to seek it.

I understand your worrying that ES might be headed in that direction. Hopefully, he isn't, though. Also, hope that he'll seek help if he finds himself becoming reclusive.

P.S. Glad our posts have helped, Rhinestone!

Summerloveand Starlady
My ES who started the fight I might add, said the only way he would talk to me was if his sister apologized to me, my mother and DH who were all there when he started a fight twice that day, once in our car and once in a restaurant. He was out of line.
Anyways to keep peace she wrote to me, mom, DH and her brother apologizing. Twice she did it. Then he upped it saying now she had to ask him to meet him so they could talk. I did nothing but tell each the next day how I felt. No matter how many times I say “I talked to your sister too” he doesn’t believe me. To Keto me hostage is ridiculous. And then not to respond to our dinner for mom’s birthday is rude. And I didn’t expect a call for our Mothers Day but he should have calked mom since he had seen her for lunch a few weeks prior. She gave him $500.
I’m just having a bad time right now after being laid up for two months and now trying to get the family together for mom’s 90 th in addition to garden work and whatever else we all do for everyone during the week.

Keep not Keto .

Sounds as if you have a lot on your mind at the moment Rhinestone!
Do you have to be the organiser of mums 90 party?
Trying to get a warring family together is tough at the best of times.

thepeakperformancecenter.com/educational-learning/learning/process/processing-information/perception/influences-on-perception/

Sorry for the delay in replying to posters who found my earlier link about the fallibility of memory to be useful. I'm really glad that it might be of help. This one is in a similar mould, by stating simply and correctly that what we perceive can be influenced by a range of factors such as our personal experiences in the past and our individual expectations. Again, there is a wealth of psychological research which lends support to this idea. The song title "It Ain't Necessarily So" comes to mind!

If it is ever possible to have a conversation with your estranging son/daughter/s-i-l/d-i-l in the future, (s)he is more forthcoming about her/his grievances than has been the case up until now and you think that (s)he could be ready to acknowledge these topics - influences on human memory and perception - and therefore the POSSIBILITY that (s)he had latched on to certain memories and perceptions which might not be wholly accurate reflections of reality but rely to some degree on subconscious influences, this could start to move the dialogue along a tiny bit in a healing direction.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

This is also relevant, I think. When we explain our own behaviour, we are more likely to attribute it to external factors than to internal ones such as aspects of our temperament, personality or character. When we try to make sense of another person's behaviour, however, we are likelier to invoke ideas about that individual's inner qualities.

Thanks for the additional links, Cherries!

Rhinestone, thanks for clarifying about DD's apology. I get ES' wanting to talk w/ her and see that as a positive. However, IDKY he didn't just ask her to meet instead of asking her to ask him, etc. That sounds like stalling to me. It also sounds like he's trying to put her through her paces, to use an old expression. Did she agree to meet w/ him? If so, do you know how their talk went?

I'm sorry you're caught in the middle and think you should extricate yourself if you can. Let them both know they have to work it our on their own - or not, as they choose. If they don't resovle this and, as a result, ES continues to be ES, that will be sad. But your trying to help isn't helping, anyhow, unfortunately. IMO, you might as well save your energy and strength.