Support for all who are living with estrangement

Thanks for your reply, Starlady.

Perhaps I'm being naive but I don't think that it would much matter whether this possible new thread would be more appropriately promoted as offering mentoring or as providing advice.

Yes, I've trawled (briefly) through Mumsnet and several other online sites and am aware from my own experience of raising children to adulthood that it has become very common for younger adults to seek out and attach particular importance to their peers' opinions and suggestions when they experience relationship problems. This has always been part of the growing up process, no doubt, but it's likely that social media and particular social changes have also been playing a substantial role in recent years by creating echo chambers within which certain ideas - meanings and proposed tactics - become fashionable, powerfully persuasive and contagious with little questioning, debate and dissent to offset these certainties.

Diversity is a prized concept these days, as we know, except in relation to diversity of THOUGHT. This is where we older adults might offer something precious and useful to open-minded and receptive younger adults - notions, opinions, observations, potential explanations, stories and suggestions that may differ quite a bit in content and style from what is often found within the usual sources. Furthermore, we may sometimes be able to convey caring and empathic attention which is sincerely meant and perceived by these younger people as being genuine. We might even come to be appreciated by some of them some of the time because of the quality of the communication that takes place.

We would make it clear that we are simply offering a no-strings-attached resource within the "marketplace of ideas". Users would of course be free to use other resources as they wish and there would be no claims made, guarantees proffered or expectations expressed other than the usual sort e.g. that everyone should avoid making abusive comments.

Hmmm... IMO, Cherries, often the young people are being "mentored" - by other young people, such as those on Mumsnet. That's often the kind of thing that gives them the idea that they can or should solve their problems w/ their parents/PILs by going NC.

Still, your suggestion of a mentoring thread here is interesting. Occasionally, as I'm sure you've seen, a young woman will come onto GN to ask our advice about her relationship w/ her mom or MIL. Usually, they enter this thread or start one of their own, but a single thread just for that purpose might be a good idea. IDK if they would see it as "mentoring," though, or just another avenue for advice. And IDK if they would necessarily stop seeking advice on sites like MN or decide to follow our advice over theirs, if it was different. But it's an interesting idea.

Some people are just inherently toxic and abusive, I don't think we should have to tolerate this just because the person is a blood relative
sometimes you just have to put your own well-being first and put as much distance as possible between you and the toxic person

If only these estranging younger members of our families were interested in being mentored collectively by other people who are not part of their family networks. What positive influences might such mentoring have? Could it plant seeds which promote more realistic, tolerant, kind, respectful and inclusive attitudes towards multi-generational family life, being curious about, eliciting then trying to understand and appreciate the perspectives of parents and parents-in-law (especially of grandmothers?), better communication skills, thinking about the consequences before acting harshly or in an extreme fashion (especially, going NC) and so forth?

Here's an idea: we gransnetters offer an anonymised mentoring service via this site to younger adults who are contemplating becoming estranged or who have already embarked partly or fully on this course of action. The common factor among younger adults using this thread would be some level of interest in exploring and discussing the conflict or sources of tension that had been growing over time, alternative, possible perspectives which could be adopted and possible pathways to some degree of reconciliation.

Meeyoo and hugshelp, I suspect that this topic is close to the heart of the matter in many cases. There does seem to be rather a lot of disinterest, rudeness, self-centredness, judgementalism, sense of superiority, entitlement, intolerance of different opinions and a predilection for resorting to bullying tactics swishing around and one can only speculate about the various socially-embedded and mediated reasons why this may be so.

I think your comment about the generation gap is really valid Meeyoo . Sometimes my DD and I will chat about things from when I was young, and she feels like it sounds hundreds of years ago, she can't get her head around how different it all was, but she enjoys hearing about it. Wheras with our ES - I think he literally wouldn't believe a lot of it, it's so strange to him, or he simply can't relate to any of it, but the bottom line with ES is he's simply not interested - he feels the focus of everything should always be about him, or it proves we are self-centred and don't care about him. Where are daughter is interested in understanding me and Dh, as she sees us as people and feels it brings us closer still, our ES was only interested in us as his parents, and because he can only focus on that he can't see us as people so can only see our failings, well mine in particular. And he could definitely only see us through the filter of 'today' and how the world works now and in his world, so any opinions or habits we might have that don't fit in with current thinking are clearly more failures.
For example, my generation and social circle, were a lot less vocal about expressing our emotions. We would try to do right by people and show we cared but didn't express a lot of stuff. To our ES that means we didn't care. He seems to have forgotten about anything we did for him, and can only focus on the things we might not have said, or not said in the way he thinks we should have. But again, I'm half guessing from snippets from our DD as he won't actually discuss anything.
But I do think the generation gap and different expectations is part of it.

Oh, maybe that's another reason why there's an occasional email, etc. from the EAC in some cases. But then why don't they realize NC isn't really working and try to find a way to reconcile? It's hard to fathom.

I don't blame you, Smileless. You all know each other's opinions. No need to spend precious visiting time rehashing it all.

I think you're right about NC becoming more common b/c it has, somehow, become more acceptable. It's almost "the thing to do." And yes, it does seem the "reasons" have become flimsier and more far-fetched. No doubt, in some cases, the reason given (if any) is a last straw type of thing, but in other cases, it's just mindboggling, IMO.

Still, I can't imagine going NC with my parents (if they were still here). Not only would it be hard for me to hurt them that way, it would be too painful for me. How can anyone go through w/ it unless their parents were truly abusive? I just don't get it!

I agree it's become a 'thing' with a whole language and terminology around it!
Perhaps also people living longer means more time to fall out?
I think the generation gap is wider as well, norms have shifted and it's difficult to reconcile widely differing expectations.

I suppose Meeyoo that the more who go non contact, the more acceptable it becomes. It's the spurious reasons that are sometimes given that, if they weren't having such tragic results, would be laughable IMO.

An AC who feels they weren't nurtured enough; who accuses their parents' of not being supportive when they are unable to provide free childcare; who having previously been happy for GP's to have their GC, decides that they are not safe to be left alone with them.

I've not been on any myself, but there are internet sites telling AC how to go non contact with their parents; encouraging them to do so.

I'll simply tell DS that I don't want to talk about it anymore Starlady if he brings it up, which no doubt he will. Having talked about it whenever he's needed too over the past 7 years, which is how long it will have been when we see him again, it's time to bring these conversations to an end.

How did we get to the situation where estrangement is so common?

Smileless, I think you're right to plan not to have that same (pointless) conversation w/ DS again this year. But I'm not sure how you can avoid it...Change the subject if he brings it up, I guess?

I'm glad, thouth, that this unfortunate situation has brought you and DS closer.

Oh, hugshelp, I see you said there was ES also got these ideas in therapy. Ive heard of that before. So sad...

Nansmammy, I think you were very wise not to speak of your issues w/ that one AC to the others. I'm sorry that one AC did and that another was so influenced. Why do some sibs just accept the word of another w/o talking w/ the parents first? Or better yet, why not just stay out of it? I suppose it's almost bound to affect the other relationships in the family, but why are some so quick to take sides w/o knowing the whole story? I'm so sorry you had to face that.

"Plus i found they weee looking for hints of any bad behaviour from us, as if to support the reports from (n)eac that we were troublemakers."

Ok, maybe if the sibs are close, they would tend to support each other (usually a good thing). But looking for "bad behavior" in their parents? Just to prove a point? I can't imagine doing this. I just can't.

I think the problem is sort of like when you (general) look up a health issue on a website and you start to think the worst-case scenario applies to you. (DD is always cautioning me about that). By the same token, when myDB went to medical school and said he thought he had the symptoms of every disease he studied. I think this is what happens to some people who take psych courses. I don't understand, though, how some AC can just forget the good and focus only on the bad that they think they see b/c of a class or a few books, etc. I can't imagine ever having gone NC w/ my own parents, even though we had our issues, even if I recognized some flaws in a psych book. If a sibling saw the same things, I might agree, but I can't imagine saying, in effect, "Ok, I'm going to go NC now." I just don't get this. So sorry Pascal and hugshelp!

I hope your DH does tell him to 'cough off' Hugshelp

So sorry to read your post Pascal123 - our ES seems to have come to similar conculusions by reading psychology books and going to therapy. What the hell is all this expert stuff that is driving families apart instead of helping them heal? I will look for the book, thank you. xx

DH got an email from ES. Seems he's still trying to call the shots, and get DH where he wants him and keep me out of the picture altogther. He said what he expects from DH quite bossily apparently. DH is mulling it over before replying, as he says his immediate reaction is to tell him to 'cough' off.

We have been rejected by both our adult daughters. The younger one 45 took up a Pyscology course and over the three years she studied came to the conclusion with help from her tutor that she was obviously not nurtured enough growing up. She then projected that on to her older sister who has two young children (our Grandchildren) and they support one another in believing they had a emotionally neglectful upbringing. Five years down the line, still no contact which is heart wrenching. Reading all these posts from other loving caring parents which is what we believed we were has given us huge support so thank you. I have read and keep re-reading a fantastic book called Done with the Crying by Sheri McGregor. She is estranged from one of her sons and writes from the heart with lots of advice in every aspect of this journey we are all on.

It's a ripple effect isn't it Namsnanny only its as if a brick has been thrown in a pond rather than a pebble.

When we go to Aus. in January to see our DS it will be 7 years since our estrangement began and no doubt he'll want to talk about it. It's become an annual conversation where the 3 of us say the same things we've been saying since it began.

I've decided though that I wont be having the conservation this time, or any other time. We've done our best to try and explain the inexplicable because of course we understand how difficult this is for him.

We know he can't discuss it with his brother because he gets angry and defensive but I just can't see the point in going over the same things time and time again. It's like picking at a scab and wondering why it doesn't heal.

Our relationship with our DS has changed, but in a good way. We're even closer now and although it' taken time, he's now able to see the situation from our perspective. He's told us and his brother that it was very wrong of him to stop us from seeing our GC. That he could have drastically reduced his own contact with us, while allowing us a relationship with our GC.

Hope the drop off of your son's card and present isn't too unpleasant Bopeep. I suppose at least you'll know what to expect if your d.i.l. answers the door.

Estrangement or difficult disagreements in families are a bit like a virus imv!
My kids all took a differing stance when one of them brought their feelings to a head.
It can get so involved with everyone making their own judgements about what’s happened and how to deal with it.
When my (nearly) estranged ac brought the world as we knew it to an end I tried to not speak of the circumstances to the others, as I thought it wasn’t anything to do with them as such. But my ac did, and that led to one distancing themselves so much.
They later said they thought they were being fair. What they didn’t understand was being fair would have been carrying on as ‘normal’!
Plus i found they weee looking for hints of any bad behaviour from us, as if to support the reports from (n)eac that we were troublemakers.
I still am working hard to build bridges and show a sense of balance with my other ac’s.
But there is no doubt, all of our relationships are changed and under strain because one decided to throw their toys out of the pram!

Thanks everyone i will be giving him his card and present as usual. I went round at easter with eggs for our grandchild, his wife came to the door and just took them off me and said thank you and shut the door. So i can do that again.

Your poor friend Ginny. Her older D could have told her and her sibling that she didn't want, and wouldn't have any involvement in the dispute.

For her to go NC too is a worrying example of how easily some AC are able to dispose of their parents.

I was chatting with a friend who has two children who have gone NC. She told me that the youngest started the problems and the older girl said she didn't have time for all the wrangling, too busy, too much responsibility with her job and family, fed up with being the go-between, so she was cutting them off too. Naturally they are devastated, but this could explain why some siblings decide to go NC too.

I'm sorry about this, too, Bopeep. I was going to say I don't get why one sibling turns against their parents just b/c the other has. Even if the non-estranged sib agrees with the estranged one, why CO the parents when it's not their issue personally?

But then I saw what DIL claimed you did. Sounds like she was looking for an excuse, and DS believed her (to some degree, anyhow). Either she's trying to score points with the other DIL or she was looking for a "reason" to push PILs away, and she came up with one.

It's a good sign, IMO, that you and DH still received cards though. It means you are not totally CO by this DS. I agree with Smileless and hugs that you should send a card on DS' birthday since he sent cards. Otherwise, it looks as if you're cutting him off ( DIL would probably say, "See?"). Better, I think, to keep the lines of communication open, espeically since he is.

I so hope this won't turn into a full-scale CO like with your other son.

I am so sorry to hear this Bopeep14. I live in fear that our ES will somehow turn our DD away from us.

I would hang on to the fact that they sent cards. I'd give an awful lot for that, little though it might be, it says to me that you are still in their thoughts at least.

I would send a card, but I'm rubbish at navigating this stuff so go with your heart and I hope it works out. x