Support for all who are living with estrangement

No I meant catalyst.

I'm astounded! I can't imagine anyone doing that if they felt what they said was the truth. Or is it part of going nc? You know, not even leaving a trace of the recent conversations? Very sad, either way, imo.

In your case, Bopeep, it seems obvious that, whatever else she was doing, dil wanted to hide the fact that she told you an event was canceled when it wasn't. Erasing the evidence as it were.

I don't really see the lie about/confusion over that event as the "catalyst" of ds and dil going nc. Perhaps you meant "the start?" (Sorry if I'm being too pedantic.) Something else would have had to be the catalyst/cause of that. I don't recall if you know.

About 4 years ago when Mr. S. was reading some of the emails we'd received from our ES, they quite literally disappeared before his eyes.

I have no idea how someone could access someone else's email account and delete some of the content but if there is a way, our ES being so technologically minded, would know.

Your post reminded me Bopeep and as you say, why delete messages/emails etc if you've nothing to hide.

Totally agree hdh74, its all just silly, but some people are just not adult enough to discuss things amicably. They take the easy option for them.

There always seems to be secrecy involved Bopeep14 - why can't they just say what the problem is? And they always have to get everyone on their side or think they are taking your side - I don't want people taking sides, I don't see it as my side or his side, why can't it just be OUR problem that we want to fix?

The catalyst for my son going NC was an event that his wife was organising via whatsapp for the family, that we got told was cancelled then saw on social media that it actually wasn't.
This week my whatsapp somehow got uninstalled on my phone and i have lost everything even though it was all backed up to i cloud( but thats another story)
My hubby has been sending me some of the things that we both got and in the process has looked at the chat about this event, and apart from one message which says she is cancelling the event it has all disappeared on his phone.
I find this very telling as to the type of person she is.
Why would you go to the bother of deleting all the messages on a chat if you have nothing to hide?

Excelent post, brownbluegreen!

"accept that, because you did not react in the best interests of your daughters their trauma was increased. You cannot change what you did in the past, but you can try and lessen their hurt by respecting their wish for no communication. A loving parent would never want to increase the hurt of their child, even if that means not being part of their life."

Ok, agreed. But one caveat. If I'm reading correctly, it's only one dd who had cut off communication even though both were violated. Ydd doesn't speak to odd either, probably because she has tried to work within the context of their parents' wishes.

Grand, if you are still reading, I want to amend something I said above. I suggested ydd may need to hear that you and dh are sorry, etc. But I realize that since she asked you not to contact her, that may not be possible right now. Something to think about for the future though if she ever reaches out to you again.

Also, when I said dh should "avoid mentioning" his relationship with abusive ds "to the other 3," I realize I should have said "2" since ydd is estranged. But if she ever reaches out to you two again, I would suggest the same.

Meanwhile, it may be cold comfort, but I don't think she's using the gc as "pawns." Instead, I agree with browngreenblue that she doesn't trust you around her kids due to your support of ds. I wish she wouldn't extend that to cards and gifts, but she may feel she needs to pull herself and her kids away from all of you (except maybe supportive brother), and may think a clean break is best. That's just a thought... I may be wrong... I'm sorry about this either way...

Oh, I meant to say that I feel deeply for Smileless and all of you here who have experienced sexual abuse...

"ES has joined a group for people whose parents are narcissists, although he does say that a lot of the stuff people talk about doesn't apply - that' something at least."

Yes, hdh, I agree. Perhaps it will give him some perspective. But, no doubt, that will take time. Also, it shows he isn't totally comfortable with his nc decision and is struggling.

"... but he says if he sees me he'd shout and scream at me."

Sounds like he has a lot of anger. He may need time to work through that before he can talk with you.

"I made it clear to DD he can do that, it would be preferable to no communication, but I doubt he will."

I doubt it also, But I get what you mean. At least, that would be contact. And maybe you'd find out why he's angry even while he was yelling. But I don't think he's ready yet, sorry to say. I know it must be hard to wait. But, once again, I hope you're not simply waiting and that you fill your life with other things

I’m going to do you a kindness by telling you what you need to hear as opposed to what you might want to hear.
When your daughter told you of the abuse and you decided it was best kept in the past, it must have hurt her deeply. It’s very difficult for victims to speak up and deciding to move on like it was a past event probably felt like a betrayal to her. But, due to fear and trauma, she probably shoved that down for a long time.
It bubbled up and she realized you and your husband are not currently safe people to have around her children. You’re not safe because the attitude that your son could somehow be reformed. What fear kept her awake at night imagining you allowing him around her children when you babysat? Or her having a medical emergency during one of your visits where paramedics could leave the children with you and then your son would come around them to act as “support”? Or did she imagine you being in the hospital and him coming in to visit you while she was there? Your son, who you love, has a sickness. This sickness is not the type where people should rally around him (like cancer) but a sickness that makes him a danger to others. People do not “get over” the impulse to commit sexual abuse and rape.
It is completely within their rights to want nothing to do with him.
As for you, it’s understandable that you want a relationship with your son even though he is a sick and unsafe individual. Here is how I would have suggested you handle things:
-have a relationship with him separate from the rest of the family completely. See him for holidays separately. Do not tell him anything about his victims or his victims about him. No sharing pictures. Ensure through word and action that you will never ever allow him around children, or victims under any circumstances. Write into your will that he is not to attend your funeral so that his victims might be free to attend.
-advise your son to turn himself into the police and confess. He can get help in prison and the system will help him be monitored for the rest of his life so that he will be less likely to hurt anyone else. By confessing and pleading guilty, he won’t have to put his victims through reliving any of the horrors he committed. If the statute of limitations has passed, he can still confess and receive advice and resources on how to manage this sickness that he will have for the rest of his life. Based on your continued relationship with him, I assume he has admitted his crimes to you and is repentant. He can prove this is not just words but a true feeling by taking the above action.
-also advise your son get intensive therapy.
-accept that, because you did not react in the best interests of your daughters their trauma was increased. You cannot change what you did in the past, but you can try and lessen their hurt by respecting their wish for no communication. A loving parent would never want to increase the hurt of their child, even if that means not being part of their life.
-if, in the future, your children want to open the door to reconciling with you, do not focus on how they “hurt you” as the hurt you and your husband have inflicted is much more substantial. It would be like complaining to a person with a broken leg that you jumped on that you got a bruise from the jump.
-forgive your son, forgive yourself. But remember that forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same. Your son is a danger to society and should never have access to victims and vulnerable groups.

One more thing... I agree with those who think you may have to give up the idea of a continued united family. Imo, that just isn't going to be anymore - abusive ds saw to that. Hopefully, you and dh can heal the rift with ydd and maintain a relationship with her and her sibs. As for abusive ds, you're not speaking to him now, anyhow. If dh keeps up with him, he should avoid mentioning it to the other 3. I'm not saying he should be sneaky or deny the continued relationship if the others ask. I'm just saying they probably don't want to hear about abusive ds, and dh shouldn't try to work him into conversations with them, etc. (maybe he doesn't). Hopefully, he will not stand by him in court.

Perhaps if ds seeks help, his sibs will (cautiously) approach him again. But I'm afraid that will be a long time coming.

If you're skeptical of family counseling, I hope that you and dh will, at least, each seek individual counseling to help you cope with this situation and find some peace...

One more thing... I agree with those who think you may have to give up the idea of a continued united family. Imo, that just isn't going to be anymore - abusive ds saw to that. Hopefully, you and dh can heal the rift with ydd and maintain a relationship with her and her sibs. As for abusive ds, you're not speaking to him now, anyhow. If dh keeps up with him, he should avoid mentioning it to the other 3. I'm not saying he should be sneaky or deny the continued relationship if the others ask. I'm just saying they probably don't want to hear about abusive ds, and dh shouldn't try to work him into conversations with them, etc. (maybe he doesn't). Hopefully, he will not stand by him in court.

Perhaps if ds seeks help, his sibs will (cautiously) approach him again. But I'm afraid that will be a long time coming.

If you're skeptical of family counseling, I hope that you and dh will, at least, each seek individual counseling to help you cope with this situation and find some peace...

Continuing from my above post...

Actually, Idk if you are still reading here Grand, but if you are... I hesitate to say the following but since it has already, basically, been said...

"Nothing much was said about the abuse until very recently when my son acrimoniously split with his wife. My daughter brought up the abuse again and this is where the nightmare really began."

"His ex wife won’t let his children near him. "

Like Eglantine, I'm getting the impression that"the pattern of abuse has continued."

Perhaps I'm wrong. But if I'm right, do you know if ds has sought help for his abusive behavior?

Also, have you and dh ever apologized to ydd for not taking her initial revelations more seriously? That may be what she needs to hear.

I agree you couldn't have "forced" her to have the abusive ds at her wedding or to attend his. I imagine she felt as if you expected it though and wasn't strong enough to stand up against you on that.

In fact, while I'm sorry the therapist upset dh so much, I get his supporting ydd in her decision to co abusive ds. It's understandable, given what ds did to her. I'm sorry she decided to co dh, also, but that's probably because of his continued closeness with abusive ds. Most likely, she just can't bear to be around anyone who has a relationship with ds.

I get your and dh's wanting to be supportive of all your ac. But I think ydd needed to see that you thought ds' behavior was horrible. Perhaps odd has been able to be "strong" because she got more of a reaction from you. It may have been harder for ydd because all she my feel all she got was "let's put it behind us."

Granted, it sounds as if your odd (older dear daughter) actually went through worse with her brother than your ydd. Please realize, though, that for ydd her experience was just as bad. After all, she was still violated, no matter how "little" was done. She may need to know that you understand that now and are sorry you didn't before.

I'm sorry that ydd and your other ds are not suggesting that dh may be a pedophile/abuser, too. As if this whole drama hasn't been disturbing enough for both him and you. It does seem odd to me, though, that he was "traumatized" by what the therapist said. Why? Just because the therapist said his reaction to ydd was wrong? It does feel as if there is more going on here. I hope I'm wrong.

But again... getting too long... sorry...

GranandAnna, my heart goes out ton you and yours. While you and dh aren't victims the way your dds are, I understand that what happened has caused a great deal of pain for you and dh, as well. Iv never been in this situation, myself, fortunately, so I can't speak from experience. But my guess is that rape/molestation in a family does not just affect the ones who have been raped/molested.

I agree that your and dh's original reaction to what ydd (younger dear daughter) told you was inappropriate. Imo, she was letting you know that she couldn't deal with being around her abusive brother and, in return, she got the message that your value of keeping the family together was a higher priority for you than her suffering. You probably didn't mean it that way, but my guess is that's how she took it. You may have said, "Let's put it behind us," but she heard, "Let's sweep it all under the rug and pretend it never happened." I get that you must have been in shock, and that this revelation disrupted your world and your values (holding the family together, etc.). As a result, though, I think you and dh made some serious mistakes.

Also, I know ydd seemed to go along with the idea of putting it behind you. But I don't think she truly did. Imo, she just gave up trying to get you to understand how she felt. And she may have been conflicted at the time, herself. The way she seemed to play it down suggests that, too. Idk, but Iv read that victims of sexual assault often do that because it's hard for them to face what actually occurred.

But this is getting long, and I have more to say, so I'll continue below...

You may be right, Smileless.

You're welcome, Cherries.

Naheed, I think you make some good points. Also, I may have said it before, but Idk why some ac don't simply lower contact, at least until things improve (if they do), instead of going totally nc. Parents/gps might not like that either, but I don't think it's as painful. Sometimes, it happens naturally, anyhow, as the gc get older and have other activities. So why not go with that?

Hi cherries. I read the link you put in the page 1 of this thread this morning. Since then I've reading almost every link on the following page of links:-

www.google.com/search?q=mother+blame+psychology&rlz=1C5CHFA_enGB748GB748&oq=mother+blame&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j0l5.19672j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Going NC with abusive parents, siblings, partners, friends, ... and even your own children is understandable but absolutely heartbreaking and devastating. Abuse has its own technical definition and shouldn't be abused by calling anything we don't like as abusive. People, parents or not make mistakes. We're humans after all. Expecting perfection from anyone or NC is just wrong. I hadn't heard of NC until recently. It's shocked and has saddened me more than I can ever express. I find going NC with parents who made mistakes or are perceived to have made mistakes is particularly extremely cruel because of the unimaginable pain it causes. Calling mistakes as abuse to warrant NC is just awful. If those adult children are sure they've been abused or mistreated by their parents then they wouldn't/shouldn't mind visiting therapists in organisations like the Relate before they go NC. They could ask their parents to go along this root to sort things out properly and humanely. Parents are far more likely to go down this root than their children, I imagine. My heart goes out to all those parents who've tried and try to sort things out but their kids refuse to. Thanks

Thank you Starlady

"How to create more balance?" how indeed Starlady.

Maybe the mistake, if it is a mistake that is because it's really only natural, is to love our AC as much as we do and then, because they are their children, to love our GC just as much.

We give them the power when/if we bend over backwards and do anything and everything we can to ensure we are and remain a part of their lives.

Maybe that enables them to forget how important we used to be in theirs.

Wow! So much has been said in the short time I've been offline!

Smileless, I think you hit it about the balance of power. In fact, often, Imo, the playing field is not level because, as you say, parents have control over whether we gps see the gc or not. But how to create more balance?

Cherries, thank you for taking time to answer my question. Glad you have contact with ds and gc! Hope you continue to enjoy it!

hdh I know what you mean. Our ES's wife was jealous of our relationship so first time we went to Aus to see DS and his wife, who we already knew, I was wondering how I should behave.

Should I be less affectionate with my son, less demonstrative and then I thought 'what are you doing, this is who you are, what your sons and your DH and everyone who knows you, knows you to be'.

So I thought sod it, I''ll just be me

Oh Golly Smileless2012 what you say is so true, it really does mess with your head. I find myself thinking I'm a terrible person for doing something really normal. If I start any sentence with I, or if it includes me, I can imagine my son accusing me yet again that everything is about me. Like we went out with DD and her partner last night and I was thinking, should I offer to pay all or will that seem controlling? When they asked me stuff I was thinking, 'Am I talking about myself too much?' when I answered.

"Protect yourself, they do get in your head" yes they do March and boy oh boy what a mess they can make in there. You end up with paranoia and if what they are saying about you isn't bad enough, you start to imagine even worse.

When we were with DS in Aus. in January we spoke about his brother. It's become annual purge, I dread it and hate in equal measure but for his sake we listen to what he has to say, always the same and we respond, always the same.

I was trying to explain to him why I don't want any contact with his brother. Since our move we have found peace and happiness which had eluded us for more than 4 years, and which we never thought we'd have again.

I told him that the thought of just seeing his brother, quite literally made me feel physically sick. He'd almost destroyed me and I could never put myself in that position again.

I told him one of the things I feared he would accuse me of in the early days of our estrangement. He was understandably horrified and couldn't understand why I could have imagined such a thing being said.

I told him it messes with your head, makes you paranoid, mentally and physically ill. So there comes a point when you have to walk away, move on and rebuild your life before it destroys you.

We do need to protect ourselves; sad but true.

Yes that's right March, just like your dad with DH. Don't think ES thinks he's ever done anything wrong though.

"he wasn't making time for her" - while you were in labour? Just wow! And then to make all that fuss and say she didn't know - it's just baffling. I honestly don't know if it's deliberate lies or if she was so bound up in what she wanted she just didn't listen to anything???

My Dad did the same. He would have a hard time saying sorry so he made you a cup of tea instead or did something nice. He acknowledged it. Where as, I don't think your son has.
I'm sorry if I'm wrong but there are so many Red flags for me when you talk about your son.

The reason he lied was because he wanted to make it your fault. He didn't get the letter because YOU had 101 motives and the letter probably never exsisted anyway. Don't you think it's abit convenient that it was your DH he told this too? He wanted to plant a little seed of doubt into his head. He already has his sister on side, he just needed his Dad. Its all about manipulation and control.

I was in slow (very slow!) labour with DD2. I was a few days overdue and had just come home from my midwife app after having a sweep. Contractions had started and things looked hopeful (again!) even though we had a few false alarms.

MIL was due to come visit that day so DH texted and told her what was happening and could she come down tomorrow instead.
He got a message back complaining that he wasn't making time for her. He explained again what was happening and she replied with 'Fine. Just text me when she's here and I'll come down then'
Which upset DH abit as we had DD1 and DD2 could appear within 2 weeks!

...roll on about an hour and we had a phone call from a frantic FIL asking why DH had told MIL that she wasn't allowed to come down, she was broken hearted and he had really upset her not letting her see DD1.

DH then explained everything that had happened and MIL hadn't even told FIL that I was in labour, that we had a midwife app, that we tried to change the day and what she said. All he said was 'Oh. She didn't tell me that.'

That was a mountain made out of a molehill. So much faffing and stress at an already stressful time. In between calling the Midwifery unit and texting MIL/FIL, me crying it was such a mess.
Any normal person would of said 'Fabulous! That's fine. Hope everything is ok, let me know if you need anything' and so on. We live local too!

It's like lies just roll off their tounge, an explanation for everything and if anything is said that hurt your feelings it's not their fault, it's yours because you have taken it that way.

Protect yourself, they do get in your head.

Thank you March - I think I have become a bit crazy about it all.
Your last sentence has really got me thinking, I can't actually remember him ever apologising for anything. But my memory isn't great so I could be wrong.
My DH actually has awful problems saying sorry, always has, but I know he is sorry when he upsets someone because he behaves in a way to make amends. And, as it happens, we were talking about it recently and DH opened up to me about 2 things that happened years ago, where he was forced to apologise for things he hadn't done. I was worried I'd upset him but he said, 'no you've brought us even closer together' - and interestingly after that he said sorry to someone for something that I'm sure he wouldn't have before!

hdh74 I really don't think you need to worry about having Narc traits yourself.

I'd love him to tell me the things he's unhappy about
You wouldn't be saying that or believing that about yourself if you had any traits.
You wouldn't look at any faults with yourself because you would be that sure of yourself that you was 100% right and everyone else is at fault.

However.

but he says if he sees me he'd shout and scream at me.
That is worrying and not really normal is it? Could you maybe look at Narc traits or even toxic behaviour?

I don't think it's you that needs to break yourself down and look at every trait you have. Growth is so important and working on yourself is always a positive thing. Making mistakes is normal and putting those right is normal. Its life, but I have a small inkling that your son doesn't apologies for much, if anything and it's always you that has to 'keep to the peace' even when you did nothing wrong.