not allowed to see grand daughter

Thankyou Hannah <3

Ironflower -- I posted this earlier on the EAC thread but if it is helpful check it out. I found it very insightful.

www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-compassion-chronicles/201501/healing-the-shame-childhood-abuse-through-self-compassion

Ironflower -- That is my point as well. If someone is incapable of understanding how children behave after abuse, there is little chance they will see the signs of abuse. If abuse has occurred and they don't understand the aftereffects of abuse, how can they make good choices to treat the damage caused? Sexual abuse becomes a 'family issue' as in elena's case. Even if there are no issues with abuse in her family husband/son etc. sexual abuse HAS been introduced to her family through her GD. It may have been passed to her GS through his cousin. So there now IS abuse in the family. It is not being addressed properly, which is the true issue of why daughter is staying away.

a healthy family doesn't accuse members of sexual abuse with no evidence pointing to it happening. It's a sign that the relationship was dysfunctional well before the abuse allegations. True, but some will not agree...

Sorry posting multiple messages.
Elena, a healthy family doesn't accuse members of sexual abuse with no evidence pointing to it happening. It's a sign that the relationship was dysfunctional well before the abuse allegations.

Just because the authorities say nothing happened, doesn't mean nothing did. They don't know, they only know what others tell them. I was 21 before I was finally able to tell anyone what happened to me.

Also Elena,
If authorities had of interegrated me at age 11 (therapists included) I would have vehemently denied anything happened because I was groomed to believe that I was at fault and that I would be in trouble. Note I was 3-6 years old when I was abused

Elena,
An 11 year old may not realise what full intercourse is. I was molested at age 3 but not actually penetrated. I did not understand this and at age 11 confided in a friend that I had had sex before. I did not understand. I was still physically a virgin. I definitely believe your grandson, everything he is saying sounds very much like stereotypical abuse. You keep saying that you believe your grandson but then you say that you don't. My parents didn't believe me and so I was molested for years. Even if the allegations aren't true, your daughter would be thinking that you don't take these things seriously, or that you would be likely to rugsweep should a grandchild ever say anything to you.

I definitely don't think that your daughter should have named your husband to the preschool without any evidence, I would have warned them off possible abuse but not name anyone until they were arrested. However if you were my mother, I wouldn't trust you with gc unsupervised just because of your dismissal.

Smileless -- elena mentioned how GS interacted with GD (his cousin) as some kind of 'evidence' that nothing happened because he acted "normal" and "happy" together.

Abuse, especially between minor children is often as difficult to spot as parents who abuse their children. I always looked "happy" around my mom. No matter how abusive she was being because 'making her look bad' was a serious offence that led to further abuse. The fact that she was abusive was what would 'make her look bad' and it had nothing to do with Me and how I was behaving, wasn't even a thought in my head until I went through recovery.

Children who are abused by each other (especially sexually) do not have any framework with which to describe that kind of abuse. What a child may call 'full blown intercourse' may not be how an adult would view whatever occurred. They fundamentally lack the knowledge/experience to understand what ANY sex acts are 'defined as'.

It is 'normal' for a child to want to be around their abusers and often act happily so. They want things to be "normal" but because they have suffered damage that the adults around them are not managing appropriately, their only defense mechanism is to try to make things appear 'normal' which is where the mental damage starts to pile up on the child if the 'adults' continue to act like everything in "normal" when it is not.

That is what I am talking about when I say elena and others here are failing hard at grasping what abuse looks like.

As for her husband NEVER having a relationship with certain members of her family now being a 'good thing'? You glossed over the fact that that is a huge 'red flag' in her relationship with him. A dysfunctional behavior having a "good outcome" is a bit messed up.

You'd be shocked and amazed at just how much rug sweeping happens around sexual abuse and how easily perpetrators get away with it. Lived through it. Even the people who believed me in my family didn't want to and were easily convinced I made it up "for attention" as a child. Even a family member who had experienced low level wrong behaviour from the same person didn't want to believe it. The fact that I only revealed it to protect my own little sister and still people didn't want to believe it. Of course my mum had a field day turning everyone against me and she KNEW it was the truth. Because sometimes mum's will protect an abuser over their own child or even deliberately put them in harms way... While claiming innocence of course.

It's just as well in the case that elena's H *did choose not have a relationship with his step daughter's children, at least that has spared him from further false allegations of sexual abuse.

Of course who did or did not commit sexual abuse is an issue here, as it is in any situation especially when in this case, an innocent man has not only been accused, but continues to be labelled as a sexual abuser of children despite being investigated and cleared by the police and social services.

I do not think for one moment elana that by saying your GD was not physically sexually abused that you are in anyway trying to make what happened to your GD any better.

You are stating a fact which in no way calls into question your understanding of abuse, in which ever form it takes.

So your daughter didn’t just accuse your husband of sexual abuse because she has “issues” or some sort of mental health condition, as you made it sound. She is concerned about your granddaughter, her niece, to the point that she has even suggested that your son, her brother, may have abused her. She believes that your granddaughter has been sexually abused and has as a result has behaved inappropriately with your grandson, her son. She is trying to deal with it in the correct manner and get to the bottom of the abuse and your position is that your granddaughter was not sexually abused and that your grandson is lying about what happened to him.

so what her problem still is with me seeing the children is very confusing

Is it confusing though? You don’t believe her son was abused, you don’t believe your granddaughter was abused and now you are blaming her and her husband for perhaps inadvertently putting ideas into her son’s head about his abuse. I think it is very clear what her problem is with you seeing your grandchildren.

elena: A part of my gs statement of him saying he and his cousin had full blown sexual intercourse at 6yrs old I truly cannot believe this that any 6yr old boy would even know what to do. Especially as the house at the time this supposedly took place there were 5 adults in the house and another 8yr old running around playing at the same time. And this same gc still happy to go on camping holidays even as recent as last summer, alone with just myself, his older brother and my gd, staying in a teepee, which brings me to question if my gs was so scared of being around his cousin, my gd, then why would he want to go away anywhere in the company of someone he was so scared of.

You clearly do still not grasp what sexual abuse is/looks like and you no NOTHING about how victims interact with their abusers. Hithere is being downright gentle when saying Your way of addressing this sexual abuse is highly dysfunctional

You insist yet again -- "she has not herself experienced sexual abuse in a physical sense." Let me say it again -- SEXUAL ABUSE IS SEXUAL ABUSE - PERIOD There are no 'degrees'. Why do you keep saying that like it somehow makes the situation 'better'? It just proves that your understanding of sexual abuse/any abuse is not reliable.

Also you said My husband has NEVER had a relationship with my d children, my gc. He has always stayed away, just his choice. I find that very frightening... Who marries a man that doesn't embrace the role of joining your family unit or selectively deals with people who are important in your life? That's a deal-breaker in my world. You embrace Me and ALL who I love or you can pound turf...

Elana,

Your dd's son statements are very serious. The more details you provide, the worse it is (not that it was bad enough before)

2 main issues:
1. You don't believe your gs.
2. You doubt your dd's ability to deal with the aftermath.

There was sexual abuse, by whom? We don't know. At this point, while this is important, it doesn't matter.

Your dd and you have very different ways to address this.

She is the mother of their children. She calls the shots. She is supporting her child 100%. That's the right thing to do

Your way of addressing this sexual abuse is highly dysfunctional

So, who committed sexual abuse and who did what is not the issue here. YOU are. Your actions are. That is why your dd is protecting her kids.
You broke her trust in the worst way possible.

Hi elana I've responded to you on the other thread.

At least your D is thanking you for the birthday presents you're sending so presumably these are being passed onto your GC so maintaining some contact between you and them.

It would appear that some of what your GS has claimed happened between him and his cousin may have been influenced by adult conversations he's over heard.

Hopefully your GS is and will continue to receive the professional help he needs and there will come a time when your D is prepared to talk to you about what is a very distressing situation for you all.

.

Hi hithere
A part of my gs statement of him saying he and his cousin had full blown sexual intercourse at 6yrs old I truly cannot believe this that any 6yr old boy would even know what to do. Especially as the house at the time this supposedly took place there were 5 adults in the house and another 8yr old running around playing at the same time. And this same gc still happy to go on camping holidays even as recent as last summer, alone with just myself, his older brother and my gd, staying in a teepee,
which brings me to question if my gs was so scared of being around his cousin, my gd, then why would he want to go away anywhere in the company of someone he was so scared of. I have asked my d to allow me to see all 3 of her children, my 2 gs and my gd whose 3yr old. I do love my gs just as much as any of my gc and I do believe some of his writings have come from things he has innocently picked up from conversations he has overheard from my d and her bf. I'm not angry with him at all, hes a child and I dont think he has realised the seriousness of all he has written. I still dont know what support hes received and I am concerned. My daughter is hell bent on trying to find something to prove herself right. She believes the police have done nothing so is now getting them investigated by the IOPC. She believes sw have lied to her, she believes the whole world is against her including me. I have tried talking with her, given her social reports, she knows my h has never come with me to visit her children so what her problem still is with me seeing the children is very confusing. If all these official bodies have told her nothing has happened with my 11yr old gd, that she may have witnessed inappropriate behaviour from her mother and yes she has experienced sexual abuse by her visual experience she has not herself experienced sexual abuse in a physical sense. So all I can do is keep trying. I send through birthday presents of which my d has thanked me for, but she is still very angry naturally due to what her son has told her but shes never given us a chance to talk through it all, very frustrating...

Smileless - I may owe you an apology. I think I understand now what you mean by some of Us "embellishing" and I admit I was so put off by your negative term/word, that I was failing to grasp what I think you were trying to convey.

Beyond not just not trusting elena at her word, myself and others were "reading things into" what she did tell us. That is what I think you are calling 'embellishment'.

Definition -- make (a statement or story) more interesting or entertaining by adding extra details, especially ones that are not true.

So from your POV I can see how the word 'fits'.

Now from an abuse survivor/My POV -- What you call embellishment might be over-compensation/hyper-vigilance on My part. I can own that. Owning that doesn't make me wrong.

I may very well 'over-state'/"embellish" potential 'red flags' when I see/read them BUT as a survivor? I would have done better in life if the adults around Me had been even 50% as vigilant/aware as I am... So that is the reason Us recovered victims always advocate, "If you see 'red flags'? Do not take that 50/50 chance."

I didn't say one was worse than the other or that elena's GD had only witnessed sexual acts. This is what I mean by posters embellishing what they read to suit their own agenda, something that you denied doing yet here you are doing so again.

elena's grand-daughter was sexually abused. Whether she only saw inappropriate sexual situations or she was physically touched is irrelevant. No one is embellishing anything in that regard. Your denial of that fact doesn't make me wrong, so no, I will not stop.

Lol Smileless good one

Smileless -- When people defend and try to make up excuses as to why AC are lying as opposed to seeing if there is any truth to what they are saying, that is a huge red flag. It shows more black and white thinking. People are either 100% wrong or 100% right.

In elena's case maybe her daughter is completely wrong but there are all kinds of red flags of a dysfunctional family in what she has told us. So in that case I am certainly not going to get on team "daughter is wrong". She's quite right to keep minor children from that type of environment.

If you acknowledge that all abuse is bad, why say, "thankfully she hadn't been physically sexually abused." at all?

I may not be an expert but I certainly have a firm grasp of what abuse is and looks like and I do not ignore or minimize or dismiss 'signs' when I see them. That's what abusers do and enablers allow them to do by excusing/normalizing the poor behavior.

I just ignore the people I find toxic.

I've not met many people in my life who categorically cannot ever admit to any level of being wrong.

Who cannot apologise for their bad behaviour even when someone tried to make amends and refuses to let go of the grudge ever.

Who absolutely has to have the last word in any situation.

But when I do, meet those types I find them very toxic.

I know that Hithere for goodness sake I've acknowledged that on more than one occasion in my posts!

Honestly, some of you are so predictable. A GP whose being denied her GC has to be at fault. Because the poster's D alleges that the poster's H, her step father abused his GD and his own D's, she has to be believed. Even though the police and social services have investigated the allegations and there was no case to answer.

TBH Hithere because you always automatically stand against EP's and EGP's because you simply will not accept that sometimes the EAC is lying, I would be worried if you ever took me seriously.

No one has said that emotional abuse isn't as bad as physical abuse but do carry on all of you. Maybe doing what you do makes you feel better.

It's the age old "emotional abuse isn't as bad as physical abuse" or, "Thankfully you weren't beaten"

Both are serious abuse.

Smileless,

Elena's gd was sexually abused.
No ifs or buts or maybes.
She was very much sexually abused and needed therapy to deal with the effects.
Gd abused a cousin.

Unless you stop denying that proven fact, nothing you can say can be taken seriously.

You don't know that child has not been physically sexually abused Smileless and its not really thankfully is it?

"oh you definitely broke your leg. Thankfully you didn't break your arm too"

Can you see how dismissive that sort of statement is?

I don't claim to be an expert on abuse HolyHannah, do you? Do you not bother to read other people's posts? I said in my post today at 11.34 that elena's GD had experienced abuse because of what she'd witnessed and that thankfully she hadn't been physically sexually abused.

I didn't say one was worse than the other or that elena's GD had only witnessed sexual acts. This is what I mean by posters embellishing what they read to suit their own agenda, something that you denied doing yet here you are doing so again.

Who is invalidating your abuse? I don't see anyone doing that but you are invalidating other posters opinions because they are not in agreement with yours. Perhaps you should stop.