How do I forget they exist?

The best I can do is to respectfully suggest that you re-read your own post to discover where assumption was presented as fact-

It's about to rain again, I love rainy weather- How about you? My hair is incredibly unruly, totally has a mind of its own- The rainwater softens it- Weather is the best hairdresser ever! And it's completely free!

Except in states where they tax rain!

I agree that when the content of a post is questionable there is the option to report it. There is also the option to challenge the post, which is what I have done.

My reference to the posts you made to Namsnanny and Starlady does not imply that they are incapable of responding themselves. It is common practice to refer specifically to a post that was directed at another poster, as I'm sure you're aware.

I'm glad that you prefer not to assume, even though you appear to have assumed that I responded on behalf of Namsnanny and Starlady when in fact, I was giving my own response to your posts.

Good morning to you too, Smileless- At the the time of their last posts both ladies showed they were fully capable of expressing themselves- Self moderation is a lovely practice and I'm glad that GN supports it- And when content is questionable one has the option to report a post-

In real life, as well as online, I prefer not to assume- But I'm human, and catch myself doing it -- too ..

rosecarmel it would be more productive if, when you see a poster name calling, to challenge them rather than ask
Namsnanny and Starlady who don't engage in that practice if they are shocked by it or consider it to be supportive language.

Starlady, do you support name calling as a form of support and if so can you explain how it is useful- For example ..

Say a DIL refers to her FIL as "fill in the blank" in her post- And you (general) refer to him as "fill in the blank", or worse, when responding to her post-

Isn't name calling a violation of loving, supportive language?

Namsnanny, this discussion has addressed many facets of interaction in real life and online-

Name calling is offensive- It isn't a form of support- But you will find examples of name calling on this site being used as a form of support-

Does that shock you?

Rosecaramel....all those horrible names, are you suggesting they were used on this site?
If so I would join you in being shocked.
If not then they have no bearing on these discussions and shouldn’t even be quoted.

Quite right Starlady, the OP's D had previously said that the OP wasn't to buy any more toys for her GS to take home, thanks for reminding us of that.

That one point so clearly demonstrates how some take a specific example made by an EP, which shows the unreasonable and unacceptable behaviour of an EAC and are still prepared to lay all of the blame at the door of the EP.

No rosecarmel I didn't say at all or in so many words that it is acceptable for me to love my son but not like him, I said that that's how it is for me.

I don't like who he's become, I don't like the way he behaves, I don't like the fact that he's denied his GM's not just him their GS but their GGC and no, I don't like the way he's treated me and his father. My love for him despite this, remains as strong as ever even though I don't want any contact with him.

You're right Jenty, this is how I feel not what he's been told.

With estrangement its not a love hate relationship! far from it. I doubt any estranged parent has told their AC that they love them but dont like them, the AC have turned their backs on their parents, cut them off! Theres is no relationship!

About loving an AC but not liking them - IMO, of course, it's possible! It may be more accurate to say "love AC but don't like their behavior/certain behaviors." But I think that's what most people mean when they make this statement. In fact, I doubt anybody here has actually told their AC, "I don't like you" though they may have said, "I love you, but I don't like the way you're treating me," etc. The love-but-don't-like issue is mostly something people express in forums like this, I believe. Hey, there is such a thing as a love/hate relationship, there can be a love/don't like so much relationship, too, surely. That's my opinion, anyway.

"Skunk bugger of a son?" "Scat-faced daughter-in-law?" Whoa! LOL! I haven't heard those from any mums or MILs, and I'm sorry if you have rosecarmel. I admit, I have heard some very negative comments about sons and DILs (and sometimes daughters and SILs) on GP sites, just as I've heard some very negative comments about parents and PILs on young mother/DIL sites.

"It was the D who was annoyed because the lego had been bought for the OP's home and OP's parents' home and was not all to be taken to her home."

Smileless, I know this comment was addressed to agnurse, but I want to answer it, anyhow. What you're saying is accurate. But the OP also told us, " I was previously told not to buy him toys for his house because he had too many..." This is why, earlier, I said I feel her D is giving out mixed messages.

OTOH, this means that when JEMz promised GS a new Lego box for his house if he behaved, etc., she was making a promise that went against D's wishes. And that even though she told us that one of her reasons for not getting Legos for their house was b/c D said he had too many toys. IMO, there seems to be some confusion on both sides.

JEMz, I see I may have made an error in my earlier post. I said that you CO your D and not vice versa. But rereading, I see you said that if you don't contact them, you don't hear from them. So I get that you may feel that D has cut you off. IMO, she hasn't really, or she wouldn't talk to you or let you see GS at all. Seems more to me like she is trying to lower contact or just leaving it all up to you. That hurts, too, surely. But you haven't been CO, which is more than some GPs can say.

Hope you enjoy your visit w/ GS and have many more after that!

"Wrote a long post them lost it!"

Just as well ..

Smileless2012, it's true that only bits and pieces of stories are revealed- But even those pieces can be revealing-

You suggested that abusers refuse to admit to their actions- And perhaps they also refuse to admit that their actions are abusive- But Smiless2012, you yourself in so many words expressed that it's acceptable to love your son but not like him- How is that any different?

Historically, in forums as well as support groups, some members offer blame as a way to show support, as in blame others for the situation an OP or contributor finds themselves in- Sometimes employing name calling- Before you know it, others pick up on it- Daughters and sons gain labels like skunk bugger of a son or scat faced daughter in-law- The result is a pejorative echo, which frequently isn't a thing people are seeking and look elsewhere for constructive conversation -

And when some members don't agree with another, or like their delivery, they make efforts to shut that person down- Examples of that dynamic are rife on this site and elsewhere, of course- Quite often direct comments are mistaken for salt and pejorative comments mistaken for salve ..

Wrote a long post then lost it!

Smileless, Thanks for taking the time to point out to some, the lack of care taken when reading other posters!

I'm beginning to wonder if it is a sign of a calcified thought process?
Meaning a person is so sure they know what is being written or said they don't disdain to actually hear or read it?
They go into auto pilot thinking they know where this is going, and jump to the wrong and bias conclusion?

It would explain a lot lol!

but the OP didn't go behind her D's back and buy toys for her GS that her D said were unacceptable agnurse. Have you read this thread?

It was the D who was annoyed because the lego had been bought for the OP's home and OP's parents' home and was not all to be taken to her home.

In our experience, when our boys were young they weren't taught to go to their GP's because they'd make things OK, they just did and despite the difficult relationship I had with my m.i.l. it would never have occurred to me to make a mountain out of a very small molehill and stop her from seeing our boys, her GC.

I agree that engaging a third party is not the way to go, but trying to find ways of building bridges before the situation gets totally out of hand, is not the same as forcing a relationship.

Starlady

I agree with you completely.

GPs do not get to decide what types of toys will and will not be allowed at an AC's home. They can only decide what they will allow at their home. If a parent says no, it is not acceptable to go behind a parent's back and do it anyway. That also teaches GC that it's okay if Mum says no, because I can just go to Grandma and Grandma will make it okay.

It's also not okay to ask a third party to get involved. Another adult has a right not to have a relationship with you. Trying to force a relationship is not acceptable. If someone tried to claim that they had a "right" to have a relationship with me or with my children, they would be astonished at how fast contact was severed.

One other thought... DD may have seen the messages from your partner and your mum as your trying to get other people to pressure her into doing your will. (I'm NOT saying you were doing this, just that SHE might have seen it that way.) As you say, you did this b/c you were "desperate." Please try, however, to avoid involving 3rd parties in the future. I don't think it will ever go over well.

Hugs! And hugs to all others in this thread who are dealing w/ difficult family relations or estrangement!

JEMz, IDK if you're still reading here or not, but if you are my heart goes out to you! Even though you will soon see your beloved GS, I get that you're feeling insecure about your whole relationship w/ DD - and b/c of that w/ GS - and I totally understand that.

I agree that it is completely reasonable for you to have some toys at your home for GS to enjoy when he's there, and at your mum's for him to play w/ at her house. Also, I feel DD sends mixed messages when she asks you not to bring anymore toys to her house and then complains when you don't buy a Lego set for her home.

But it definitely seems as if this is about more than the Legos or any other toys, and that your relationship w/ DD is a checkered one. It may very well be, as PPs (previous posters) have suggested, that she is jealous of your relationship w/ GS.

If you don't mind, I think there are a few mistakes that you may be making, too - well-intentioned, no doubt, but, unfortunately, exacerbating the situation. Mostly, they fall under the heading of not considering/respecting DD's wishes for her child or her home. For example, as a PP pointed out, you promised GS a toy for his house w/o checking w/ his mum/DD first. And I'm sorry to add, even though you knew DD said she didn't want you to send any more toys. When DD asked you to ask about seeing GS, yourself, you turned around and had your mum message her instead. I understand why, I really do. But can you see that she may have seen this as another disrespect of her wishes? In the future, I strongly recommend that you take her wishes more seriously. You won't always be able to accommodate them, of course. But it seems to me it would be worth trying to do so a little more.

IMO, there is hope here. Look how it worked when you respected her wish that you contact her partner about visiting w/ GS! It may not have come about as quickly and easily as you would like, but you are getting to see him. That tells me you don't have to "forget they exist," you just need to respect DD's wishes, if possible, and it, apparently, goes a long way.

"I thought I needed time away from my daughter so I decided to not contact him as I usually did every week"

I get why you felt you needed time away from DD. And I realize that to talk w/ GS, you would first have to talk w/ her. But can you see your decision not to contact HIM as usual may have seemed to her as if you were punishing HIM for the conflict between you and her? And do you realize that you are the one who initiated this semi-estrangement, not DD? Some posters are reacting as if she CO (cut off) you, but she didn't - you CO her.

And if you think about it, I'm sure you'll realize that it's difficult to get to see the GC when you (general GP) CO the mum. Fortunately, in this case, you can arrange to see him through the dad. Please just enjoy the visit and don't brush off the chance for future visits if it's there. Keep working through the dad if you don't feel you can approach DD. Please also accept that the visits may not be as frequent as they were in the past and that you need to fill your life w/ other things (friends, hobbies, volunteering, your work, whatever keeps your mind off your strained relationship w/ your DD).

Namsnanny Thanks

Madgran77.....I couldn't agree with you more!!

I wish people would try to use your comments as a yard stick before they deliver their pearls of wisdom.

I think some people are just looking for a subject to dump their grievances on.

I avoid for the most part political threads for that reason, but any thread seems to attract obnoxious self appointed 'experts' at times!

Some people seem to think the world cant exist unless they've told someone else how wrong they are!!

IMV that's the difference between just making a noise and offering genuine unbiased advice...……..which by the way is only an opinion not truth as some would have us believe.

And, lets be honest here, advice is there for the recipient to choose to act on.
Not to be forced by way of squabbling and name calling or shamed into taking.

BTW, Sorry you had such a terrible time March.

Estrangement is estrangement ...I'm not sure why anyone would be batting for a side really! I totally agree with Smileless and others that posting on here should be constructive but not unkind. Disagreement doesn't have to be personal!

I understand emotions run high when with topics like this. The hurt and anger is still there, no matter how much time has gone and what side you're batting for. It might not be as strong but it's still there.
It's such an emotional subject so I understand people lash out. Like I said, we are only human.

That's horrible March and that's why I posted earlier this morning.

No one should be subjected to that type of response. I also have a pretty thick skin but have been hurt over the years by some of the comments I've received. Perhaps my skin is thicker than I realize, as I've been taking part in discussions about estrangement for more than 6 years.

Some posters are more sensitive and vulnerable than others. Even if an opinion that's given is diametrically opposed to our own, if it's expressed in a considered way the receiver is more likely to consider what's been said.

I'm glad that your upsetting experiences haven't deterred you from continuing to contribute to this difficult and painful topic.

I think that works both ways though Smileless.

I posted on one thread and I was called the 'Daughter in law from hell', Evil and Nasty. Been called Controlling and selfish. I had my post twisted and then dragged into another thread and I was spoke about so horribly.
The poster lied about my situation and made up a story out of thin air about the estragment. I had to get Gransnet involved because it was a pack of vile lies about my husband abandoning his mum when she had cancer.

Another time I posted that my MIL had sent abusive messages to my husband. I was told by a poster that she didn't believe me and my MIL was probably just upset.

I could go on really, but those are the 2 that stick out the most. It's a good job I have fairly thick skin but tbh, they hurt.

So please, make that a blanket rule for everyone posting. No matter what side of the fence. Delivery is key. We are all human.

You're right Jenty! If it was that easy I suppose the world would be a happier place.

I know there are different level of this. I know it's not Black and White, but sometimes, in some cases, it does take acknowledgment from both sides. It has been a build up of arguments and not seeing things from each others point of view etc.
It does snowball.

Some people can't seem to utter the words 'I'm sorry' it's not in their vocab. Which is a shame as (for our situation at least....well I think anyway) that's all it would take.

A line in the sand, some understanding and a lowering of expectations.