Narcissistic adult children

Gosh notanan have you met our ES's wife? We spent months before the estrangement listening to her, backed up by our ES, telling us how she was being bullied beyond endurance by a co worker. Her oldest childhood friend told us once our estrangement had happened that it was her who was the bully. She spoke to her about it because she was so shocked by her behaviour and then was discarded.

Our ES and his wife were God parents to her friends youngest daughter who adored our ES. She was only 4 and had a picture of herself and our ES by her bed. She was so distraught when our ES's wife severed all contact with her mother and she never heard from or saw our ES again, that her mum had to take the photograph out of her room. Another victim, just a little girl caught up in the web of deceit and cruelty of our ES's narcissistic wife.

From the other prospective I am the child of a narcissistic mother.

I thought she was a one off until not so many years ago I read a similar case to mine and identified her as having Narcissistic personality Disorder.

She had no time for me as a child as she was number one so me and my dad had to worship at her alter.

There's too much to bore you all with but it taught me to look after myself from a very young age. My philosophy even back as a seven year old was if I don't look after myself no one else will. This was my emotional well being. I was fed and clothed that wasn't an issue.

Narcs tend to be too "clever" (and sly) to overtly appear "hard work" & unpopular

Ive seen someone (who I think has narc traits) befriend and invest in getting close to people they never liked, despised even. Who they sabotaged behind their backs and bad mouthed, but the "friends" only saw a sweet, kind and caring friend in them and will probably never link certain events to that person's manipulation..

They are manipulators. They may manipulate by being cruel to you, or they may manipulate by making you think they are your best friend in the world.

There will be a trail of dumped friends and bullied co workers if you dig deeper...

But as good as they are at being cruel, they are just as good at being charming if that means serves an end for them.

It is logical that if a person has fallen out with their own family, has very few friends and has abused us that it is them, not us.

See from a TEXTBOOK point of view, narcs are often popular, charming and sucessful....

Its clear if you are recieving the full throttle venom I suppose but from other peoples point of view and from a professional diagnosis point of view......
Tricky..

No doubt at all in my mind but I do think it must be difficult for someone who has never experienced someone with NPD to understand. I only know one and thought it must be my fault for so long because I couldn't believe anyone could be like that. It was one of my DiLs, who never says anything bad about anyone and has the sweetest nature, who made me accept that it was this person who was 'evil' and that I had only treated them with kindness and consideration. It is logical that if a person has fallen out with their own family, has very few friends and has abused us that it is them, not us.

I think when you are confronted with someone with NPD and when you start to find out from others their history, there's no doubt what you're dealing with.

The term "crocodile tears" was made for NPD

They can appear to care depending on the audience/aims. And act it very well

But with BPD the tears are real

The terribly sad thing is that ppl with BPD can act the same way, but don't want to be that way, and can have treatment to help them manage the tendancy to sabotage relationships.

Whereas there is no conscience to appeal to with NPD.

But how do you know which you are dealing with?

notanan "NPD ppl will often derive some benefit from their actions: financial gain, making themselves look good to others, the benefits of gasslighting so they appear a victim etc" oh yes and definitely "seek to destroy you".

"then they will seek to destroy you" chilling words notanan and so horribly true.

Our ES's wife sought to destroy us and our relationship with our DS. Thank God she failed. She did destroy our relationship with our other son and only GC though.

NPD ppl will often derive some benefit from their actions: financial gain, making themselves look good to others, the benefits of gasslighting so they appear a victim etc

BPD wont benefit. In fact they cut off their noses despite their faces. They will display other self destructive habits like debt/addiction/risky sexual behaviours.

BPD sufferers will push you away, beg for you back, push you away, beg for you back... and it hurts them probably more than it hurts you

NPD will push you to nearly NC, but then manipulate you to come back for more so that they can hurt you some more. They dont want you to recover and move on from them. But unlike BPD, They thrive on the "game"

It can be so hard to tell BPD from NPD from the outside.

Both sabotage people/relationships. Same actions, different motivations:

BPD destruct relationships because they think they are unworthy of love. They have insight into what they are doing but still feel compelled to act destructively. They know they are wrong but also blamw themselves when they are not wrong. Outwardly charming/sociable until they doubt your affection for them then they "test" you by treating you so badly that you end up stepping back, then they feel they are proved correct in their feeling of being unlovable.

NPD = no insight! Thoroughly feel 100% in the right. Outwardly charming and sociable unless they feel that acting that way to you offers them no personal/financial/social gain/benefit, then they will seek to destroy you.

But in PRACTICE the behaviours/actions can be the same

We only properly realised that a friend's husband was a narcissist after he'd died. Until then he'd just been very selfish and self centred, while outwardly very charming to 99.9% of the world, and wanting to be the centre of attention, which he very often was, because of the sheer force of his personality and the outward charm and good-bloke-ness.

It was only after he died that things he'd so very cleverly hidden for so many years, came to light. His poor wife was devastated, but only then did we recognise the classic signs of narcissism.

Oh notanan I think we know the same person! We were accused of all sorts of things we simply didn't do. We were able to prove some of them to be untrue but our accuser still said we did them. So many things were alluded to but no examples ever given and the narcissist managed to convince people that we were terrible people. Of course those so convinced didn't know us and when one of them did they were really surprised.

I often wonder if this person believed all they said but it all came from inside their head and was not true. Thoughts, motivation and feelings were attributed to us which were completely false and we always thought they must be the way the narcissist themselves would have thought and behaved. We tried killing with kindness but it didn't work.

If you DIL has had metaphorical glass put in her eye by her own childhood traumas. She will see you as having ugly motives towards her. And that is 100% real to her.

Its sad really

I think they ended up wholeheartedly believing their own lies. Even in the face of pretty solid evidence against.

Its like the little boy in the Snow Queen: the ugly version of reality they see it real to them.

Thats the problem smileless, as with your case, the trauma can be real, but then the blame and facts can be misdirected.

I have had dealings with someone with narc traits who blamed me for things that happened before I was born!

Their anger and hurt was very real I have no doubt about that, but all of the resulting rage got aimed at me for some reason. And no attempts at injecting any logic to the situation would defuse it.

notanan I only recently learned about 'gaslighting' and you are absolutely right. I could have written that post myself.

Smile You make some good points It must be so hard to see a man you know was a good man become something else, presumably under the control of a partner. It must be very hard for a man confronted with the choice of his partner and children or his family. I feel so sorry for them.

Reading what you are all saying makes me so glad that it is not one of my AC who has this issue. I feel so fuortunate.

"Fuzzy" lines..

Most PDs start out as early attatchment disorders

There are fussy lines between the disorders too. People with BPD can exhibit narcisistic behaviours at time though they are often not narcisistic in motivation for the most part. And people with BPD tend to be similar but opposite to NPD (as in always believing they are the problem, even when they are not) which can externally manifest in similar ways/actions

We firmly believe that our ES's wife has NPD. I knew her mother for several years, before she ever met our son and she was subjected to persistent childhood traumas.