Child arrangement court order

If the mother said they could not go to the GPS for dinner because they were going out somewhere else, and then don’t go, only a manipulator would insinuate that the mother tells lies based on those details.

It could very well be that the plans to go out with another guest fell through at the last minute and could not make it, so they stayed home seeing it was now already time to eat.

Just such bad assumptions on this board to make nothing more than straw man arguments that rent helpful at all.

It also has to do with the definition of abuse and discipline.

Spanking was discipline in the past vs now more recognized as physical abuse by younger generation.

Same with emotional abuse. It went under the radar for a long time.

Financial abuse, reproductive abuse....

Yes let's do that Razz.

You'd think that involved GP's would know how their AC and their partners are parenting wouldn't you, whether they do smack and with so much talk against smacking as a form of punishment, that if they were unsure, they would check with the parents.

When DS was little we were staying with my mum and he was having a temper tantrum, well he'd been having that particular temper tantrum for 4 hours. My mum had been at work and when she came in asked if he'd 'been at it all morning' and when I said yes she went up to him and smacked him on the back of the hand.

It worked; he stopped probably due to the shock, don't get me wrong it wasn't hard but he'd never been smacked before. I was shocked and angry, told mum ever to do that again. I wasn't against a smack on the back of the hand as a reprimand but not at the age he was then and not in front of me without even asking.

An example of as you say Razz different generations doing things differently.

I am struggling to think of examples I am not bound on confidentiality

Here is one though, a friend once fell out with her parents for 6 months. They had used physical discipline on her child. She was furious as she had never used it. The parents thought they were justified because they had used physical discipline on their children and they were fine. Their daughter said that actually she wasn't fine and she had felt frightened and didn't want her child to ever be afraid of her. Her sibling sided with the parents and thought that smacking was fine. My friend said that if they ever laid a finger on the child again they would lose their privileges. Eventually it settled down and they agreed to disagree, but my friend didn't leave her child alone with them for a long time and it caused a lot of friction.

Right, perhaps we can leave it there and not make assumptions AT ALL and actually listen to each other.

You have to remember that part of the problem here is that different generations do things differently. My son and dil parent very differently to the way I did, although my parenting changed vastly over time because of therapy, because I did a lot of reading worried I would be a bad parent like my mother and because I am a teacher and do regular training on how to communicate with children and adults (possibly need more lol). I think there are a lot of ways to be a good parent, but it is easy to be set in them. It's easy to automatically treat your grandchildren in a different way than their parents and break the continuity of how they are being raised. It's easy to think your way is better etc

Why strong words GG? Why not a talk with GM to find out why the child made that statement in the first place?

IMO an immediate response of having strong words with the GM is the assumption that the GM 'helped' the child come to that conclusion in the first place and isn't that what started this particular debate to begin with?

Yes, Nonnie, you are right. The comment was missing context, so it is hard for anyone to know.

What I do know however, is that when looking for signs that a child is being manipulated or coached, comments like “mummy lies, daddy (because it is usually the other parent) doesn’t” would raise concerns.

I think any parent who hears “mummy lies, grandma doesn’t” coming from the mouth of their 5 year old child, is, at the very least, going to be having strong, strong words with grandma.

An excellent contribution to the discussion Madgran.

Razz I did say that it maybe wasn't your intention but that was how it came across to me. Again, it may not have been your intention but I believed your remarks about petulant, uncompromising and argumentative responses were directed at me which is why I responded the way I did.

I have made no assumptions about you and share in your frustration of being accused of doing something I haven't done.

That is a big problem I think on the majority of estrangement threads nonnie; all P's are good, all GP's are bad or all P's are bad and all GP's are good.

Any of those claims are ridiculous, they bring nothing but disruption to an already complex and for some distressing discussion.

But I do see it sounded personal and I do apologise because I didn't think that through.

I apologise that my comment hurt you, it was not intended to. I was just saying that children caught in the middle of something may not know who is the really liar. Again though your essay up there is making a lot of assumptions about estranged children commenting here when I haven't seen any of them do as you accuse and I think you owe an apology too, although I accept your anger at me might be some of the cause when you wrote it.

Yes, razz but it looked like an accusation to me, it added exactly nothing to the debate and I wonder why it is only my comment that you said that about. If you had said you didn't know if anyone was telling the truth that would not have been personal. You were personal and an apology would be appropriate and accepted.

I already explained that I wasn't calling you a liar Non ie, just making a point.

razz no you don't know if I am telling the truth, nor do I know whether you or anyone on here is truthful. When I read a comment like that I wonder what sort of person would make it. As I don't tell lies I don't assume others do unless there is evidence. Were I a liar I might well assume that others were.

GG with respect I heard it, I know the situation, you don't.

All this sanctimonious claptrap about all parents being angels and all GP being harmful is just complete rubbish and the determination of some to deny that parents are sometimes the cause of the problem indicates to me that they must be the problem. I don't have any problems with my DILs or GC and I never cut out my own or DH's family but I have seen some horrible people who cut others off for totally selfish reasons.

Incidentally I remember DS being told the biscuits had all gone when he could see there were still some in the tin. He said 'not true', he was under 3 at the time. Those who suggests children don't know what is true and what is not are either inexperienced with young children, forgetful or just pushing their argument when knowing they are wrong.

Yes, GG the child may have lacked judgement because they saw far more of the mother than the grandmother and had far more opportunity to observe the mother's lies. Therefore the child was accurate about the mother but may not have been about the grandmother.

Please don't think I am talking about any of those scenarios I am not. The parent concerned lies all the time, blatantly, and the child would have to be stupid not to see it. This was not a conversation where the GP was having any discussion about what the mother said because the GP is scrupulous about not talking about the mother or anything that happens at home. Also the child has been threatened if they ever talk about the parent outside the home so the GP is extremely careful not put the child in any position where the mother would carry out the threats.

I didn't want to be so direct but the assumption that I am lying and the determination to not take any notice has made me feel it necessary to do so. Smile has read and taken on board what I said but most others have, for some reason I don't understand, refused to accept that what I say is absolutely factual.

Yes, I accept that you actually believe children should be taken away from a whole side of their family and have to wait until they are old enough to research and make direct contact to find out why. However, I don't agree. I think any parent who does that to children who have been enjoying great relationships with the other side of their family may be permanently harmed by being suddenly cut off from them. Of course I am assuming the GPs are no risk to the children, just that the parent is not a nice person.

Mad I think your comment was fair but it is frustrating to be accused of doing something you are very determined not to be doing. There is nothing between the lines of what I am saying here. I have been supportive on many occasions to EPs.

Of course a child recognizes lies in adults.

It is something else to twist this into an argument lying parents vs honest grandma.

Smile, I have tried very hard to get to know you, told you several times I think these cases are individual and left them at 50/50 to be as fair as possible. I have been very honest with you, yet you make the same assumptions about me and pull me up when I am not even responsing to you. All I can do is laugh really because apparently it's all my own fault.

1. 5 year olds do follow particular stages of development but do have different ways of thinking within those. My 5 year old granddaughter is quite clear on occasions that her mother lies..."Mummy says she hasn't got any chocolate but I can see it in the cupboard" Equally another day my 5 year old granddaughter will tell me that I am lying and might tell her parents that I lied to her. "You said we were having strawberries for tea, but we haven't." Both scenarios can be understood by posters, I imagine without explanation from me, ...and can be responded to appropriately for the child, to help them think things through as they make sense of people's behaviour.

2. My 5 year old granddaughter will also tell me that I "never lie to her" but" Mummy/Daddy do"; neither statement is true, there is no coaching, it is just her reality at a particular point in time. Again, no need for me to get in to the appropriate responses for her. In other circumstances as in the original scenario given, only the people involved could the best response for that child in that context.

...so 5 year old children have different viewpoints for different reasons at different points depending on context, motivation and their aims at that point!

3. I have worked with many 5 year olds and seen this changing views/judgements of situations many many times as they try to make sense of and negotiate through life and work out where they and others fit!

4. Parents and Grandparents are not an amorphous mass all the same within "their group"; we are all individuals! Stating the obvious but it feels as if it needs to be said somehow. Both "groups" will have individuals in who behave appropriately and individuals in who do not. Each individual's experiences will shape their responses and may well shape their views of all members of the other group - fairly or possibly unfairly, but disagreement does not automatically suggest bias towards one "group" or prejudice against the other "group" although it can do!

5. People trying to discuss honestly on here are not necessarily being petulant or trying to shut discussions down just because they are trying to put another viewpoint...although it does sometimes seem that any disagreement is viewed that way. That is a shame.

That should have read 'none of the first 3 and are to be expected when discussions are taking place, especially when they're about such an emotive subject'.

And I read it before posting!!

Yes I am able to acknowledge that Hithere, are you able to acknowledge that a child can interpret for his/her self from what they have personally experienced whether an adult lies?

That they do not have to be influenced by another to come to that conclusion? Because this is what this discussion is about.

It might have come across better if in your post which said "Anyone agreeing with the child and saying their parent is bad for that has something fundamentally wrong with them" you'd have referred to a parent or a GP Razz.

It may not have been your intention but it came across to me as siding with parents when this discussion is about a child's P's and GP's.

Being disagreed with is not saying what you may or may not post and rather than being "petulant, uncompromising, argumentative and not conductive to discussion" it is IMO none of the first 3 and the 4th is generally to be expected when discussions are taking place, especially when they're about such an emotive subject.

I'm not anti grandparents either, the side of my family I wasn't alienated from were lovely. The 3 grandparents my children have contact with are also lovely.

I am also tired of being told what I can and can't say or having it pointed out that the same is true in reverse too, when I did not say it wasn't, I was just responding to the scenario given. Its petulant, uncompromising, argumentative and not conductive to discussion.

Smileless

Are you able to acknowledge the mother may have not lied?

"What the mother said, it can be true in that moment - the mother did have plans to go out" yes that's possible but IMO that sounds like something the mother would claim if caught out in a lie.

And just because "I can play devil's advocate and show a another side of the picture does not make me" anti parents Hithere.

I don't agree that you are showing another side to this picture. The examples you've just given are irrelevant. This discussion is about issues of lying regarding children, P's and GP's, it's specific to that, your examples aren't.

Smileless,

What the mother said, it can be true in that moment - the mother did have plans to go out

Whether they end up materializing or not - depends on what happens next.

Mothers and fathers of young kids adapt to life as it happens.

Smileless,

It can also be said you are a very anti-parents.

Just because I can play devil's advocate and show another side of the picture does not make me anti grandparents