AEC thread. Feel free to chat or add helpful resources here.

Madgran, I didn't suggest my sibling shouldn't repeat themselves, I didn't ask them not to- I did point out that they were repeating themselves "as well"- Then they distanced me- Again

After every discussion that's occurred, the distance keeps increasing- It's rejection- And yet strangely emancipating

??

Madgran77

*its important to "meet them where they are at" currently*

Absolutely rosecarmel, I agree 100% It is just one of the reasons why I harp on endlessly (repeat myself () about the importance of how things are written, how things are communicated in a public forum. Even if one "knows" why someone is experiencing a problem and might be able to help them consider their own potential culpability in that difficulty in the light if ones own knowledge/experiences, , unless it is communicated in a way that they are able to engage with then there is little point in posting if one's purpose is to help.

Madgran, I didn't suggest my sibling shouldn't repeat themselves, I didn't ask them not to- I did point out that they were repeating themselves "as well"- Then they distanced me- Again-

After every discussion that's occurred, the distance keeps increasing- It's rejection- And yet strangely emancipating ..

.

I just had chat with my daughter and she didn't even remember, I guess it is enough that I held myself accountable in this instance

As you said Starblaze, repeated explanation and apology which was thrown back as not being genuine or sincere (enough). Hey ho, we’re back on an even keel now so these things can be resolved!

Pantglas how did you deal with it when it came up again? Might help me at some future time

You need to direct that answer, HolyHannah, to Starblaze not me, as my daughter and I have been happily reconciled for many years, far longer in fact than we were estranged!

My point was that in spite of Starblaze and my protestations of accidental neglect, sincere apologies at the time and intermittently after, if a child decides it is bad parenting at any time in the future, they could use it as a reason to estrange. Which of course is their right.

Pantglas2 -- If a 'child' adult or otherwise brings an incident up at a later time, it is quite likely that the child didn't feel heard or understood at the time of the event. If they didn't feel 'heard' then, dismissing and not understanding that there are still emotional implications from the situation in the now is not going to help.

I tried before NC to get my 'mom' to hear/understand/see what she was doing was 'hurtful' and I tried to use examples of bast bad behavior. Needless to say I got all the normal abuser BS from her.

Now that I understand she's mentally incapable of seeing anything but her dirty side of the window, it's over for Me. She had plenty of time and opportunities to learn to 'listen' but she seems happier in her unhappy. That's the definition of dysfunction and it's a toxic mentality. It also repulses healthier thinkers.

The energy you 'put out' is the energy you receive...

I haven't confirmed I have a problem. I said there "appears to be a problem". Good that neither of us have a problem!

I wont bother to repeat my original point about Rose's comment, have said it enough times now.

Madgran you said you weren't sure why there appears to be a problem.

I don't have a problem but chatting to you often feels like you have a problem and you have confirmed that.

I'm just saying we can avoid that if it is better for you

For me there is a vast divide between being helpfully supportive and feeding unhealthy thinking/enabling

I agree. My comment was simply about "meeting them where they are at now" that rosecarmel said. I think it is a good thing to keep in mind when posting, if one wants to be help and that is one's purpose for posting. (enabling and feeding unhealthy thinking is not the same as "meeting someone where they are at now", just to be clear that that is not what I am suggesting.

Madgran I'm just talking, expanding, thinking about the subject out loud and considering what causes problems around here. Please feel free to not engage

Why would I not want to engage? |I think it is an important consideration which is why I come back to it at times when I think it is relevant. Rose's statement resonated and made sense, and I think it is good to keep it in mind

Pantglas if it comes up in 20 years I will deal with it again the same way.

Something that happened badly affected her. I understood how she felt then and I understand now still. I will apologise, explain that it was an accident and hope she understands.

Ah but there’s the thing Starblaze- something similar happened to me and my daughter held that against me twenty years later during our estrangement!

As folks on here keep saying, it’s the child who decides good or bad parenting!

My daughter is a very logical little soul. I remember when she was little, I saved her from a fall after she slipped on an icy path outside school. Unfortunately my nail grazed her as I did it. She didn't understand the difference between something being an accident or on purpose so she quite furiously told anyone who would listen that I hurt her and I had to go into the office at school.

I was sat there crying saying that, well she is right, I did hurt her and she is upset with me and I should have been more careful, or cut my nails or not have let go of her hand while we were on slippery paths even if I was trying to juggle a baby too.

They were very understanding. They said that she doesn't see how she was hurt, just that she was and they would take her aside to explain to her. They said that my reaction was what they wanted to see from a safeguarding standpoint. Everything was fine.

GG65 rosecarmel and Holyhannah

I had a little cry this morning, because your comments were so.... True and lovely.

Madgran I'm just talking, expanding, thinking about the subject out loud and considering what causes problems around here. Please feel free to not engage.

Madgran -- For me there is a vast divide between being helpfully supportive and feeding unhealthy thinking/enabling.

Whether EP's like my feelings/thoughts or not, the idea/theme that they often self-affirm things like, "I was a good parent and I know you were a good parent as well and We all 'did our best' so..." is 'nice' but -- When will parents good/bad/absent/whatever grasp that their thought/feelings on their parenting = exactly NOTHING when seen from their child(rens) perspective/reality?

Any 'parent' that views their own perception of how they were as a 'parent' as more accurate then their child(ren)'s vantage point/reality is crossing into a different dysfunctional territory.

EllanVannin -- The table in question was approximately 4 feet long, 24 inches wide oval and had a metal band around the outside... Under the glass was mesh metal so IF the glass broke the small shards of glass and anything/anyone could only fall a short distance... Hence the sound when the glass broke. You would have to purposefully try to make the broken table "lethal" like rolling on it etc. otherwise we'd have removed it during 'child-proofing' the area.

Sometimes truths are just hard and no amount of fluff changes that

As I have explained many times when talking about posting I am very far from talking about "fluff" and I don't think that anything I have said in the last few posts suggests that I am talking about "fluff".

I have on many occasions seen posters (both EACs and EPs) express clear unhappiness/shock/anger at what is being said/how something is being said/insensitivity etc and on many occasions (not all) I would say that is because no effort is being made for "meeting them where they are at" It is perfectly possible to give hard messages in a way that can be heard. Kindness/respect/recognition of different experiences and recognition of where people may be on their "journey" are all very far from "fluff".

I am not even sure why my comments on this appear to be a problem, I was originally just agreeing with rosecarmels wise statement. Still think it was a wise statement and one that is good to keep in mind.

I'd have said " thank God for that " glass tables have no place where there are children. Lethal.

I am not much for personal stories but I hope this gives some a chuckle and please, everyone feel free to judge my/our parenting on this...

Our eldest was a toddler at the time, having a tantrum and he slammed a wooden toy onto the floor and it bounced and landed square in the middle of a glass coffee table... Just like a ducking cartoon a crack started... and then it spread as husband and I watched in absolute fascination until the inevitable 'crash' as it finally broke. We looked at each other like, "Wow. Well 'that' just happened."

He grabbed the closest to him and I did the same to keep everyone safe. Kids were crying everywhere! Finally neither of us could hold 'it' in anymore and we busted out laughing. The scared and confused crying from the kids quieted. We put them in their safe area and went to clean up the mess after they were 'settled'.

Now you need to understand why that reaction. Husband owned that 'thing' before we met or had kids. All manner of abuse had been heaped on the thing. Video game controllers 'dropped' on it (thrown by man-children) ceramic mugs from higher then 'safe' distances etc.

What 'killed' the table was a toddler having a tantrum... Now we could blame kiddo #1 but it wasn't his fault Us stupid adults kept a glass coffee table near toddlers (regardless of how strong We thought it was). All We could think of was, "How would Our 'moms' react to 'this'?" and they would have missed the comedic hilarity of the whole scene.

The memory of not 'freaking out' about a broken coffee table and accepting Our part in its demise while laughing at the comic gold of the cartoon quality of the table breaking didn't end with us feeling guilty about anything. We didn't yell and scream or make our frightened children feel more scared (when the table broke the 'crash' was impressive) then they were.

rosecarmel -- Your comment brought me to tears. What a perfect analogy. Like most abuse victims I often do, to this day (mostly due to intense training) down-play the side effects of my abuse, especially combined with later in life diagnosed Autism.

I'd like to think that NO ONE would, "have the ovaries to walk up to a Vet and tell them to get over their CPTSD-" and yet it seems the implication that between my Autism and C-PTSD I can just "get over" all 'that'. FTR "all that" is part of who I AM, so am I being asked to get over being Me? It is much healthier to embrace/accept ones-self, good and bad, then live in denial of if not 'perfect' then 'not flawed'. I have rarely met what I felt were healthier thinkers who drag out the "perfect" word as in, "Our EAC expected Us to be 'perfect'." says they and yet I have never met an EAC who has said, "My parent wasn't perfect. That's why I estranged."

And the reply is usually some variation of, "Well Hannah, other EP's say that happens so therefore it is true." which goes along with the whole insistence that AC's DO estrange from loving/'good' families. The fact no one can find an EAC who calls that their truth sorta negates that EP 'theory'.

OH! But there was that EP who had her son come back and he told his mom that the estrangement was totally on Him and he was sorry. As reported by an EP so is that the truth or just a gas-lighting 'story'? And that gets met with, "Well you expect people to believe Your 'story' of abuse... Why won't you believe what I say/take my 'word' for it?" Two reasons, grew up with an abuser and Autistic.

And then people wonder why the Vulcan/Autistic gets 'confused'. Logic. If something doesn't 'make sense' it is therefore illogical. Statements/assertions made without corroborating/reciprocal evidence is illogical. People who deal out non-logic are probably not logical thinkers... Or did I miss something?

HolyHannah, when a subject no longer interests me I stop initiating conversations on the topic or joining in active discussions on the subject-

Moving on is a subject that others have an interest in discussing- It's odd the discussion involves suggesting others should, also odd the discussion lacks insight and instruction-

It's an attitude to adopt, if it's anything at all- But not without consequence for those that expect the euphoria of such positive affirmations to last-

And you know damn right well that they don't have the ovaries to walk up to a Vet and tell them to get over their CPTSD-

We all move on- People who lost limbs in war move on- But they never, ever forget the loss- If they forgot the loss, they'd never know how far they came since the day they were taken away-

Remembering is to anyone's credit-

rosecarmel -- Perhaps those that chant the loudest that they are 'over it' and encourage others' to do the same are actually the ones that have least addressed their own issues. That certainly fits with how some behave and my personal observations.

My sibling is a "get over it" person on the surface- But beneath that thin veneer of their money-purchased "move on" sneers are gobs and globs of unprocessed, toxic problems -- that they hardly ever bring up in discussion because they're leaps and bounds ahead of me (better) ..

GG65 -- The double-standards are glaring. If EAC were to tell EP's to, "Just get over it." they would trot out the, "But it's a 'living bereavement'! YOU don't know what it's like!"

Well, maybe I don't and I'm very low on sympathy for most EP's. There are several reasons for that. They tend to universally act much like my own 'mom', which is not a good sign. They are more then willing to inform everyone of their pain but abused children know nothing of pain? It isn't 'painful' that the only way to end abuse is often to self-orphan? EP's often claim that they were abused as children but did not repeat the cycle. Then why are so many of them estranged? The answer they don't want to hear is, I have yet to meet an EAC that doesn't cite some source of abuse/dysfunction in their FOO.

That means, if you are NC'd, there is likely a very valid reason whether you want to face that reality or not. If you opt for 'not' and your relationship stays the same (No Contact) then at a certain point maybe they should take the advice they keep giving Us or accept that their unwillingness to commit to positive change is why they are in their horrible situation in the first place.

I'm likely to be more sympathetic to an EP who accepts some/any responsibility instead of 100% blaming someone else. I'm also far more likely to believe an EP isn't the issue when they don't say, "Well you blame your 'mom' 100%!" Child abuse victims and adults being abused by another adult (the evil child-in-law etc.) is apples to oranges. Anyone who wants to blur those situations is likely an abuser because they don't understand the power-differential between an adult parent and a minor child even when the 'child' reaches adulthood. Blurring of those lines is a way an abuser plays victim.

However, if EP's did take that advice then they wouldn't be able to illicit sympathy and really, most seem as deserving as my 'family'.

I might not be the strongest person but I certainly am a more reflective person then my 'mom' and that certainly makes me a better parent then her.