AEC thread. Feel free to chat or add helpful resources here.

Thank you, will see if I can find it

I don't think they're capable of self reflection an understatement IMO.

What you notice about narcissists is how they 'see' their own faults in others, projecting their own narcissism onto others.

What sort of things happened to make you believe your DIL is a narcissist Smileless?

First indication was the checklist we were sent that I mentioned earlier, then various incidents we were aware of at the time followed by what we found out once we were estranged.

It took me half a lifetime to be even close. I actually thought I was the crazy one. All my negative character traits come from abuse. Most are only ever expressed towards abusive people as self defence.

Bonus professional opinion that I am definitely 100% not a narcissist. Not that it stopped me worrying I could be.

Starblaze -- The best indicator:

11) Willingness to lie or leave out important facts. With narcissists, honesty is fluid. Yesterday’s truth can become today’s falsehood. When wrong or inappropriate, they are prone to rationalize why they should not be held accountable. Narcissists look at their engagements with others, not as relationships in need of nurturance, but as transactions. They are in constant search of ways to stay dominant, so if truth has to be altered, so be it. They lie easily, keep secrets, and distort their depiction of events to suit their immediate purposes.

I find it interesting, after having read so many estrangement stories, the common themes of "rewriting history" or "remembering things 'wrong'..." or "They make 'stuff' up to justify estrangement..."

It's a weird mix of projection and gas-lighting. The funny part is, even when confronted with their "shifting reality" with evidence? They still deny, deny, deny and play the victim.

As a victim of child abuse, who was never believed, I find victim blamer's (often enablers) and abusers and their quest of, "Feel sorry for MEEE!!!" nauseating. I was being 'punished'/tormented for my 'bad behavior' (which was my mom's abuse and HER "bad" behavior) and now when having to be held accountable (like I was made to) all of a sudden MY behavior is 'abusive'.

Which leads to:

18) Many double standards. Because narcissists begin with the presumption of their unique superiority, the standards that apply to others (so they believe) do not necessarily apply to them. For instance, they greatly dislike when others feel angry toward them, yet they feel fully justified when the reverse occurs. Or if you waste money it is far more egregious than if they do. “My understanding of life is so much better than yours,” is their rationale.

Starblaze -- My 'mom' has always had issues with her Narc and trying to project that onto me while ignoring that my Golden Sis DID.

When she would accuse me of some Narc thought (her thought) I learned to just smirk and say, "It's a good thing we both know I don't think 'that way'..." My Narc was a 'C' student at best. My MiL is an 'A' grade -- husband and I have compared notes.

In my experience narcissists have no concept of truth, only their 'truth'; so what isn't true is made up or there's a kernel of truth that becomes distorted.

Our ES's wife for example complained about being bullied by a colleague at work. The kernel of truth was that there was bullying going on, only it turned out that rather than being the victim she was the bully.

When thinking about accounts of estrangement if the person responsible for the estrangement is a narcissist then re writing history or remembering things wrong or making stuff up to justify the estrangement is all part and parcel of their narcissism.

It isn't gas lighting or projection if those they've estranged say these things have happened when that is the case.

There are so many indicators of narcissism but you have to know what you're looking for. You have to recognise that the person you're dealing with is a narcissist; the person your AC for example has chosen to spend the rest of their life with, and the one you've welcomed into your family.

You believe the things they tell you because you've no reason to doubt them. You even make excuses for some of their actions and by the time you know them for what they are it's too late.

IMO it's a completely different scenario when the narcissist that comes into your life does so when you're an adult, as opposed to someone who was raised and abused by a narcissistic parent.

In some ways the narcissist in the former case needs to be more subtle, more deceptive as it is not just those around them who need to be fooled but their victim needs to be fooled too.

How on earth did you find out that info from her workplace Smileless and how did you know who was telling the truth?

The gaslighting was the biggest issue for me. The "i never said that" and "it was just a joke" and "you are so sensitive Starblaze".

Spending my childhood savings and later telling me it didn't exist was a fun one.

Silly things like painting my room pink and telling me I chose it, I hated pink.

Lying to my stepdad about my behaviour or exaggerating it till he blew up at me.

Slapping me around the face then pretending I'd hurt her badly if I tried to stop her by holding her wrist.

Bringing up my trauma on every one of my birthdays and special occasions and telling me how supportive she was but I didn't want any help because I always was stubborn. Lol this one screwed me up. When I first told her she said no one would ever want me now and rug swept the whole thing.

Constantly telling me I'd never amount to anything, she almost succeeded but I have now.

Continuously trying to convince me my amazing husband was abusive and controlling when we had small disagreements. Tying to bribe me with a car to leave him. Generally treating him like dirt.

Telling my children inappropriate things about me or questioning them about my parenting, telling them, the fact they offered to wash up at her house made me bad and that I shouldn't be asking them to do chores at home. Lol OK then, children don't need life skills at some point?

Telling me horrendous lies about my dad to try to get me to stop seeing him. Really really awful ones. I can't even repeat them. She forgets her own lies though so most of that came unravelled.

Turning my brother against me with lies, saying I said things about him etc. She used to do it the other way around but I just ignored it and assumed he would too (big mistake).

I could go on forever, I really could.

Her childhood friend worked with her. She knew who the bully was and tried to talk to her about it; big mistake because of course narcissists don't like being found out and confronted, no matter how nicely it's done.

I knew her friend reasonably well and she bumped into
Mr. S. after we'd been estranged. They were God parents to her youngest D. She was crazy about our ES and when his wife cut them out of their lives, it broke the little girl's heart.

People tell you things when it's all over, things they wouldn't mention before; possibly because if they had you wouldn't have believed them.

how did you know who was telling the truth? as you'll know from your own experience Starblaze narcissists rarely, if ever tell the truth.

I guess that's the thing about narcissists and their lies.

They mostly get away with it because people only half listen or just don't question them about it.

When holding onto reality becomes a matter of survival, well, we listen. We question. Then it all falls apart. Eventually we see the pattern. Or we just start recording or keeping a journal or whatever it takes to have the truth.

Then it over for the narcissist and you just have to hope others eventually recognise them for what they are.

The only problem is they then attract other narcissists willing to play the game with them.

It doesn't matter if you keep a journal or start recording, you should know that *Starblaze. They'll swear black is white, twist what someone has said, take things out of context to try and make someone look bad if what they're saying goes against their 'truth'.

I do think that eventually others see them for what they are, that's certainly been my experience.

I wish it was always the case when holding onto reality becomes a matter of survival that you're always listened too but that's not been my experience. Some people aren't interested in the truth, unless it's their 'truth'. Some people will only accept another's experience of say a narcissist, if it matches their own.

I do agree with you about narcissists attracting others and when that happens, I think it makes their narcissism more obvious.

Starblaze -- You forgot a golden rule of a Narc, they always know what 'the truth' is about their Scapegoat. If someone says something negative about the Goat, it is automatically believed by the Narcissist...

My 'mom' would always punish Me for the mere act of standing up to my bully sister. So any time I stand up for myself, I get accused of being 'like them'.

Narcissists see everything as an attack, whereas healthy/mature thinkers ask themselves, "Is this an attack OR is this person REACTING to something I said/did." With a Narc the answer always is, "I have done nothing 'wrong'/I don't have anything to apologize for so THEY must be over-reacting/attacking ME."

And of course Narcs never walk away when they can get something... Money, child-care etc. Sooo if someone is not looking for something from a potential victim (a willing to baby-sit GP for example) then it becomes clear who the issue is.

IMO it's a completely different scenario when the narcissist that comes into your life does so when you're an adult, as opposed to someone who was raised and abused by a narcissistic parent

Exactly Smileless. While it took me forever to recognise the signs because I was raised in this environment, my friends and husband's family were very quick to point out that something was very wrong, and they only saw my dad at family functions.

If you're used to healthy relationships and people, many narcissists (not all) stick out like a sore thumb

Ironflower -- 100% agree.

I have said before, that if I grew up in a healthy family, I would never be fooled by/see an abuser and their behavior as "normal". So if someone marries an abuser/Narc they likely learned that as 'normal' from somewhere...

Having been raised in abuse and going through recovery makes the insanity of my 'family' that much more obvious. Anything resembling "healthy" could see how messed up our 'family' is/was.

So if someone marries an abuser/Narc they likely learned that as 'normal' from somewhere...

Not necessarly. Narcs are very clever at the game they play and initial physical attraction can override much whilst they pull someone in. I do not think that it can be a generalised assumption.

I also dont think that one can know 100% how one would be if ones life experience had been different. One can hopefully see how ones life experience has affected one though, and hopefully learn from that

As you say Madgran not necessarily. Bad enough if someone's AC becomes involved with an abuser/narcissist without the implication that they learned abusive behaviour was normal from somewhere/someone else.

We can only imagine how our lives could have been different and the best that any of us can do is see how our experiences have affected us and try and learn from that.

Narcs never walk away when they can get something....Money, childcare etc of course they do. Our ES and his wife walked away having received a substantial amount of money from us. They could have have child care too, the fact that we were estranged before that was ever given doesn't mean that she isn't a narcissist.

Unless you have an in depth insight into all narcissists, such blanked statements are meaningless.

If you're used to healthy relationships and people, many narcissists (not all) stick out like a sore thumb I agree Ironflower and for me, our ES's situation demonstrates the old saying that 'love is blind'.

Our..... very young at the time..... family member was totally taken in by a very strong personality and thought that love would conquer the control, the insecurity, the unhappiness and the hatred of anything not of his making or choosing, would somehow disappear and together they'd have a happy life.

Twenty odd years on, domestic abuse, narcissistic behaviour, parental allianation, estrangement, behaviours we have had to research and learn about are part of our life and that of ones we love so much.

Its such a painful journey into this world of hate for all involved and at times overwhelming for everyone but in particular the not so young now family member.

Madgran77... Yes we do need to learn from our life experiences and narcs are very devious at pulling people in.

As a family working together we are hoping that by showing love to our estranged family member we can work our way out of this. What are our chances?

Some things I've been thinking about and noticed seem to be true of all abusive narcissists (I don't believe all narcissists are abusive).

They know they are being abusive but they have rationalised their reason for doing it. Perhaps you said one wrong thing in the past and you are now the enemy. Everything bad they do to you is fine from that point because they believe it is fine to hold a grudge forever. Even if you are an innocent child.

You have become an enemy.

As an enemy you are now just as bad as all others that have become enemies. If you happen to know other enemies, you are also held responsible for anything they say or do. Even if you try to explain that you didn't say/do that and you don't agree with it. You are not believed and you are now deserving of abuse forever because you are bad.

Abusive narcissists certainly don't know they are narcissists but they do know their behaviour is wrong. It's just not as big a wrong to their minds as you are so it has to be rationalised away.

Projecting is a good tool for this because they can take all their wrong behaviour and give it to you.

Why?

Because they don't know they are narcissists. They think they are normal and you are the same as them. So when they are punishing you as an enemy without empathy and you are angry and hurt and defending yourself. They think you are just pretending to be hurt and angry to hurt them, because that is what they do.

The gaslighting is another way of hiding their bad behaviour because they know you don't like it and they want you to stick around because, to their minds, having an enemy around to use as an emotional punchbag helps them feel better. Also because you deserve it as an enemy, that's fine.

Then they lie to everyone else about the whole thing.

Why?

Because not all those people will understand that you are an enemy. The narcissist knows that revealing their abuse of you will make them look bad so they must cover it up. Those people won't understand, they haven't had to put up with just how bad you are. So if someone else hears of their abusive behaviour, that one time you drunk too much now becomes you having a drink problem. That one time you tried drugs becomes you being an addict. That one time you pushed them defending yourself from their slap makes you physically abusive. That one time you yelled at them etc.

Others must believe that they are the real victim here because they believe they are. So if they have to lie to accomplish that, that's fine, as long as others understand you are bad because to their minds that's just the truth.

They might not know they are narcissists and abusive ones at that but they have no problem whatsoever projecting that or any of the other terms used to describe abusive narcissists onto you if they learn of them.

They don't have any self reflection.

So anything they have done in the past stays in the past. Once they have projected, lied and gaslit the subject away, that becomes rock solid reality. They genuinely cannot look at their own behaviour objectively and see its impact on your relationship.

If the subject of their bad behaviour in the past ever comes up, well, there's a good explanation for it. That bad thing they did was justified and they shouldn't be questioned about it or made to be accountable for it. If you can't see that, you are mean and wrong and you may just find yourself an enemy too or at least pushed away.

You are the enemy, you are bad.

They are a victim of you.

As long as there is love and communication there's always a chance Granniesunite. That's why when you're estranged by the person whose become ensnared by a narcissist, it's so devastating because without that communication, there's nothing you can do.

It's such a painful journey into this world of hate yes it is a painful and frightening one and I wish you and your family well with yours.

Our ES, apart from his brother is estranged from his entire family and friends he'd had since childhood. Eventually, those that could have shown him things weren't 'quite right' are removed so the narcissist has complete control.

He has little contact with his brother and we are convinced that were he not living so far away in Aus., that relationship would have been terminated too.

I agree that narcissists know their behaviour is wrong which is why they like all abusers, need to alienate their victim. By projecting their own dysfunctional behaviour onto others, they are attempting to make that person look like 'the bad guy'; if they truly think there's nothing wrong with the way they are, why would they need to do so?

Narcissists lack of empathy, their need to control and manipulate and so often their desire to destroy relationships and/or a particular person because they have to be the most important, the center of attention for me and cannot be questioned, makes all narcissists by their very nature, abusive.

When I think of narcissists, I'm always reminded of the fable about the frog and the scorpion. The scorpion needs to get to the other side of the river and asks if he can ride on the frog's back. Knowing the risk he would be taking, the frog declines so the scorpion seeks to reassure him by saying 'why
would I sting you, if I do we'll both die'; so the frog agrees.

Half way across the frog feels a searing pain and realizes he's been stung. He says to the scorpion 'why did you do that, now we'll both die' and the scorpion replies 'I couldn't stop myself, it's my nature, it's what I do.

That for me sums up a narcissist, it's in their nature, it's what they do. I don't believe that all abusers are necessarily narcissists but I do believe that all narcissists are abusive.

It isn't about what you may or may not have done or said, you don't have to do or say anything to become a narcissists victim. You just have to be you, your very existence is enough; that's how it was for us and continues to be so.

No they aren't Smileless, some are able to know and understand they have a personality disorder and get help for it. Some don't enter the abuse cycle.

Narcissism is a spectrum we are all on to a greater or lesser degree so unless we are all abusive forever just for displaying traits on occasion then not all narcissists are abusive.

Wish there was a like button on here smileless.

You are so right in what you say. It’s their nature and in our case it’s seems to be inherited.

We’re just learning and I hope that one day we’ll get the peace of mind that is so badly escaping us at present.

But it’s the alienation of innocent offspring that concerns us the most. They deserve so much better.

Aesop says it’s all right enough. Love that.

Abuse is to misuse something. All narcs misuse something or someone.

Perhaps some can be shown the way forward and respond to treatment but they’ll have misused something or someone before that happens and caused pain and possible mayhem to someone’s life.

I can say thankfully I only know two people ...and they’re from the same family.....that fits into the description of narcissism.

Granniesunite, Narcissism is indeed often inherited.

My mum was abused, my mum became an abusive narcissist.

There was a point she could have sought help after the first episode.

Had she done so at any point, even now, I would forgive her.

In general and not in response specifically to any one else:

This is exactly why I wanted an EAC thread

Coming across abusers like narcissists later in life is absolutely nowhere near having your growing brain changed and moulded by being brought up by one. It's paramount for us to understand them and what the impact has been to heal ourselves of any problems we have or have picked up.

For me that includes adult children who have developed any personality disorder as a result of abuse, including narcissistic personality disorder.

People who claim to understand Narcissism for one should have the self awareness to have allowed us that and just taken any resources that help them to other threads.

Instead there have been unkind, invalidating and unhelpful comments here

Its a shame