Why you might be estranged... aka the same theme/attitude of EP/EGP's that EAC understand.

Yennifer, it's an introduction to broadening the view that abusers do admit to being abusive, specifically parents-

rosecarmel - Thank you for the resource. However, one incidence of abuse and immediately getting help when the parent recognized it was wrong is not what I am talking about. I am talking about habitual, long term, never stopped abusing their kids until they went No Contact and then continue to blame their kids. Those are the abusive parents I take issue with.

Parents that make a mistake and perpetrate an abusive act is not a 'child abuser' by definition. Abusers just keep doing it over and over and over because they don't see anything wrong with their behavior even when confronted with it by their EAC.

HolyHannah, you insisted that abusers don't admit to being abusive-

When parents are mandated by court to attend groups, it's frequently not due to a single incident, but a history-

The facility has been in existence since since 1969, serving parents and children with abusive histories-

And when there is a history of abuse, it generally doesn't mean a single incident-

rosecarmel -- I can see what you are saying and will read more there. However, the main group of abusive parents that I am talking here are the ones who now have adult children and those parents who are estranged due to that. Do you see anywhere where these parents talk about that? Like, "I abused my child(ren) and they have estranged from me because of it."

About David Peltzer - I've read his books - such horrible abuse! I can see why some people might not totally be able to get their minds around it. I had trouble believing some of it, myself, until I realized I was making a mistake by trying to make sense out of such senseless and beyond-cruel behavior. That poor child! It's amazing he grew up into the fine husband and father he became. Excellent books but very disturbing, no doubt.

Sorry, that should be David Pelzer, not Peltzer.

HolyHannah, research isn't something one does to support right or wrong but to discover and provide insight-

m.youtube.com/watch?v=psN1DORYYV0

rosecarmel -- In the video you posted, the first question Dr. Brown asked her audience was, "Who thinks vulnerability equals weakness?" and a shocking number of hands went up. I thought, "Oh boy, what an unhealthy mindset and audience."

I do not disagree with Dr. Brown and her idea that shame looks different between men and women, I've never done any research on that subject. I might also be willing to 'take her word on that' BUT she admitted she doesn't study men. I question anyone who makes assertions about an entire gender and admits to not studying that/their side.

I disagree with her assertion/claim that women (the way she says 'it' I presume she means ALL women) feel shame 'the same way'. As a woman and abuse survivor, her definition is only 50% correct from my POV. Her definition of "shame" is only true of Golden Child abuse victims.

From the knowledge feel I have, she does not seem to recognize how shame differs with a Scapegoat Child versus the Golden Child abuse victims.

Morning ladies
The toilet roll scenario: of course it wasn't that, her husband had been brainwashing her to turn against her birth family, especially her mum & sister that she had always been so close to. So when her sister asked her why she froze, as she didn't know why, remembered the toilet rolls she produced those as the reason! At that time I didn't know that my life was a bout to be destroyed, by her husband.

I read that book 3nanny6 'A child called it' I would say it's not a good idea for Yennifer to read that., it's on a whole different level to getting a child to eat carrots, a very disturbing read. I did buy his other books too, including his self-help book.

Rosecarmel were very good posts of last night; 23.35 & 00.02. I can see that Yennifer & HolyHanna are locked into a mind-set of only seeing parents as abusive & not just the one's who have been estranged either. They will never change their mind-sets, no matter what they read/learn.

"Do you see anywhere where parents (say) I abused my child(ren) and they estranged me because of it", no I haven't seen that anywhere.

Likewise I don't recall seeing any EAC say their parents were decent, kind and loving, gave them a happy and secure childhood but they estranged them because they were manipulated and controlled by an abusive parent, or for some other 'reason'.

We know that both of the aforementioned scenarios exist though don't we.

Starlady I think the case of David Pelzer remains the worse reported case of child abuse in that American state.

"her husband had been brainwashing her to turn her against her birth family, especially her mum and sister that she had always been close to". As with our ES Yogagirl, his wife did exactly the same thing.

To say that adults who find themselves in abusive relationships learned to accept abuse as children is utter nonsense. Sometimes that is the reason, but not always.

HolyHannah, she studies men- She didn't for the first four years of her research- When she gave that talk she had already begun including them in her studies- She shared the story about the man that approached her at the book signing which inspired her to include men in her research-

Research isnt an exacting science- It expands and collapses upon new findings, defining and debunking, constantly in flux- Some think science isn't an exact science-

This is her parenting manifesto:

The Wholehearted Parenting Manifesto

Above all else, I want you to know that you are loved and lovable. You will learn this from my words and actions--the lessons on love are in how I treat you and how I treat myself.

I want you to engage with the world from a place of worthiness. You will learn that you are worthy of love, belonging, and joy every time you see me practice self-compassion and embrace my own imperfections.

We will practice courage in our family by showing up, letting ourselves be seen, and honoring vulnerability. We will share our stories of struggle and strength. There will always be room in our home for both.

We will teach you compassion by practicing compassion with ourselves first; then with each other. We will set and respect boundaries; we will honor hard work, hope, and perseverance. Rest and play will be family values, as well as family practices.

You will learn accountability and respect by watching me make mistakes and make amends, and by watching how I ask for what I need and talk about how I feel.

I want you to know joy, so together we will practice gratitude.

I want you to feel joy, so together we will learn how to be vulnerable.

When uncertainty and scarcity visit, you will be able to draw from the spirit that is a part of our everyday life.

Together we will cry and face fear and grief. I will want to take away your pain, but instead I will sit with you and teach you how to feel it.

We will laugh and sing and dance and create. We will always have permission to be ourselves with each other. No matter what, you will always belong here.

As you begin your Wholehearted journey, the greatest gift that I can give to you is to live and love with my whole heart and to dare greatly.

I will not teach or love or show you anything perfectly, but I will let you see me, and I will always hold sacred the gift of seeing you. Truly, deeply, seeing you.

Something all parents and soon to be parents would benefit from rosecarmel.

"Likewise I don't recall seeing any EAC say their parents were decent, kind and loving, gave them a happy and secure childhood but they estranged them because they were manipulated and controlled by an abusive parent, or for some other 'reason'."

Smileless, did you mean to say parent? Or partner?

This is a post about abusive parents. Nowhere have I said I think all EPs are abusive. Ive actually said the opposite lots of times.

What I think is that abusive parents are abusive. I also think anyone continuously excusing, justifying, defending abusive parents or attacking EC who are saying they were abused are abusive too. Yes that means what I say. I can't believe some of the nastiness here and I'm supposed to believe that's coming from a nice person who shouldn't be estranged?

What do you mean yennifer? Not sure I understand?

I'm not estranged because of the carrots. I keep saying it! Actually I do have scars from physical abuse too. I could show you or tell the other stories too but I don't want to because it's difficult and it's information that might identify me and then I might have to leave.

I'm listening to HolyHannah, I think she deserves to have her voice heard. She has made some interesting points and some points I don't know about but she is talking about abusive parents so it shouldn't cause issues.

Yogagirl says she has been estranged over toilet roll. I haven't questioned that or laughed at that. Yoga girl knows her daughter, I don't!

A non EC did question that but nothing came of it.

So I'm being attacked and laughed at purely for being an EC and everyone is OK with that?

I hate abusers, from all generations or sexes. This post is mostly about abusive parents but I have still said it's abusers that are the problem!

If people want to defend my mother that's fine but they are doing her job for her and I'm sure she would be very happy to see me hurt by it x

That's all I'm going to say about it again Chewbacca, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger x x

So I'm being attacked and laughed at purely for being an EC and everyone is OK with that?

I've read back over all 12 pages of this thread yennifer and I can't see that you've been attacked anywhere. Your posts about your situation, have been treated with as much respect and empathy as any one elses. I'm in exactly the same situation as you; I'm an EAC, and just like you, I've been listened to, heard and supported non judgemental.

No one is trying to hurt you.

Chewbacca, my feelings are valid. If you don't see comments laughing at me or saying my estrangement is wrong that's because you choose not to. Not every EC is a nice person, so I'm not necessarily going to hang off their words I'm afraid x

Of course your feelings are valid yennifer, they absolutely are. But I truly and honestly cannot see where you, or anyone else, has been told that they are not. Great pains have been taken by everyone who has contributed to this thread to listen to each other, try to understand where the other person is coming from and empathise with each other. Whilst I'm sorry that you don't feel that you've been treated this way, I honestly can't see where any contributor could have tried harder to give credence and acknowledgement to all sufferers of estrangement, which ever side they're coming from.

Except for a couple of posters, one more than the other, and you randomly popping up to tell me I'm imagining things or pointing out my annoying typing habits I completely agree Chewbacca! That is why I usually like it here x

Yennifer in regard of the book I mentioned to you it was only because of chatting to you on here and the mention of your carrots (which in no way do I find funny) Your comments just triggered an old memory in my brain about the book I mentioned.

I have said in some other postings (not this particular thread) that I took a professional person centred counselling course as it was when I wanted extra qualifications for my C.V. I was looking for a career change.
We had many books that were necessary and had to be read for course intentions. Many were long books all about methods of counselling but some were the true life stories of individuals that had suffered hideous evil but had triumphed against all odds to survive. I know a few posters say they have read his books and I agree they had such evil within the pages however his work was held in high esteem
and not only his books but his work and dedication in helping others overcome similar adversity was recognised and applauded by millions.

I would say Yennifer that his books and particularly "A child called It) perhaps would be too emotional and upsetting for you in that case do not read.
I only wish their were some books in regard of parental abuse by the adult child to the parent I would certainly read them. The thing is that estrangement seems to hold such taboo as after all who is going to believe that an adult child would estrange a loving grand-mother from her grand-children after all that just doesn't happen does it?

3nanny6, it takes all sorts of people to make up a world and its so sad that so many treat good loving people so badly. Sometimes I think abusers treat good people badly because they are the easiest to hurt and are just the easiest targets because they just keep trying to fix the relationship. I don't know why abusers become abusive but everything a child experiences that might break them is not in the parents control. Like bullying at school or other abusive family members etc. I usually read fantasy fiction but if I ever come across such a book I will definitely let you know. I know my experiences are nowhere near "A child called it" after reading the blurb but I think even if it's hard, him overcoming those experiences is just incredible and gives so much hope! So I am looking forward to reading and dreading too. Please don't worry about it x

and you randomly popping up to tell me I'm imagining things or pointing out my annoying typing habits I completely agree Chewbacca

What??? Firstly, I will "pop up randomnly" on any damned thread that I wish to pop up on and I neither need, nor require, your permission to do so. If I choose to simply read a thread for a few days, without actually posting in it, that's my prerogative and I will exercise it.

Secondly, I have NEVER pointed out yours, or anyone else's typing habits. It seems that you are determined to make issues and conflict no matter how many times you're shown support and empathy on here and God knows, I've tried to. I don't know if you are confusing my posts with someone else's yennifer but I don't like being accused of something I have never done and I would suggest you check who you're referring to before you make any further personal and derogatory accusations.