Why you might be estranged... aka the same theme/attitude of EP/EGP's that EAC understand.

Thank you 3nanny6, I will have a look x

I read Dave Pelzer's books a few years ago and they are as you say 3nanny very upsetting. The most distressing case I've ever read about.

I remember one particular event where his mother deliberately burned his hand; I thought I was going to be sick so for anyone thinking of reading the books, they are not an easy read.

Getting children to eat a healthy well balanced diet is something we all face as parents. I remember how are boys would suddenly refuse to eat something they'd previously never had an issue with. DS went through a phase of not eating anything green.

The 'you must eat all your dinner if you want pudding' rule didn't work very well either. Once our DS when told he'd have to at least more of his dinner if he wanted pudding responded with 'the dinner part of my tummy is full mummy; couldn't think of a suitable reply to that one!

You're right Starlady we're in a much better place than our ES's m.i.l. No more rides on the emotional roller coaster for us thank goodness.

3nanny6 I have downloaded it to read after my current book but was a bit shocked at the top review. I suppose there isn't anything that people won't pretend doesn't happen x

"When fully formed healthy adults find themselves involved in an abusive relationship but do not appear to recognise this, this demonstrates the complex and at times subtle behaviour of an abuser."

Fully formed HEALTHY adults will recognize abuse and not be susceptible to the tactics. Accepting abuse is a learned behavior. The last thing child abusers want is their children to have is healthy self-esteem and learn proper boundaries to protect themselves.

This is why abuse victims often end in similar abusive relationships. Abuse is a victims 'normal'. Victims learn to tolerate abuse and thus pass it on. The only way to break the cycle is recognition, unfortunately abusers never see themselves as such.

In your last paragraph, HolyHanna, you paint abusers with too broad a brush regarding recognition- It may be an adhered to opinion, for personal reasons, but it isn't a fact-

Abusive individuals can, and do, admit that they are abusive- They make efforts to change and can- Many have-

I understand why someone who has been abused wouldn't consider it and believe it's true that many wouldn't-

As for the abuser, they only need to believe in themselves, their ability to change, to hold themselves accountable, to make amends when applicable-

rosecarmel -- I may be incorrect that abusers never admit they are abusive, but neither have I seen an abuser admit they abused their children and deserve to be estranged.

I agree "As for the abuser, they only need to believe in themselves, their ability to change, to hold themselves accountable, to make amends when applicable-" but to get to that point, they have to admit/own their destructive behavior and how it impacted their victim(s). Abusers fail to do this, instead they victim-blame/deflect and DARVO their victims.

www.mentalhelp.net/blogs/child-abuse-and-the-role-of-parental-denial/

A quote from the article -- "Apparently, the answer is that these survivors are seeking an apology and an affirmative statement admitting their wrong doing. This is what makes the discussion so filled with despair for so many survivors. The despair results not simply by the refusal of an apology, but the complete denial that anything happened."

HolyHanna, I appreciate your transparency, that you have never personally encountered an abuser who admitted to being abusive and holds themselves accountable for estrangements resulting from their behavior-

It's not uncommon to seek out sources that support ones opinion and personal experience and not seek out information that goes beyond ones personal comfort zone- There are many reasons for this- However, in reality, other information exists and is available when one is ready to seek it out and read it-

Plato's allegory of the cave offers a clear, comforting explanation-

I think a lot of the time abusive people don't realise they are abusive until they lose something they love or take it further than they expected by accident and shock themselves out of it. I don't think my mother will ever admit to it or realise as she has built her life too far and too high and the whole thing would collapse. I think maybe it has to happen within a certain timescale. Unless it's something on top like drink or drugs that you give up later in life and then finally come back to reality. I think anyone who picks a scapegoat in order to confine the abuse to one person must know they need to do that to keep their carefully built house of lies and still vent their nastyness at somebody to feel better?

I don't know just thinking. I've met many ECs who have picked up and rid themselves of abusive behaviour x

rosecarmel -- I have searched for the topic thoroughly. It is an unhealthy/dysfunctional dynamic to only seek out validation of ones views. I seek to see all sides. So if you can cite articles and references to these things please share. Otherwise I will have to go on the research will all shows, abusers do not own their behavior.

"research WHICH all shows"... pardon me.

No that's wrong HolyHannah, sometimes fully formed adults don't recognise abuse and are susceptible to an abusers tactics. Accepting abuse is not always learned behaviour.

That's saying to parents whose AC finds themselves in an abusive relationship, that they went into and remain in that relationship because they'd learn to accept abuse from childhood.

Sadly abuse victims often do find themselves in similar abusive relationships. Likewise some abuse victims recognise an abuser and avoid a relationship for that reason.

An adult who has never experienced abuse can be easily manipulated and controlled by an abuser. The abuse is drip fed over a period of time. Their existing healthy relationships with family and friends are gradually undermined until they're eventually destroyed.

The toxic nature of the abuser creeps up on not only the victim but the victim's family and friends so when it's realised what's taking place, it's often too late to stop it.

"Abusive individuals can, and do admit they are abusive". That's quite right rosecarmel.

The eldest son of Fred and Rosemary West who was married with children, committed suicide because he saw his parents' abusive behaviour in himself and didn't want to become what he himself had witnessed as a child and young adult.

Anyone can admit to being abusive- Passive aggressive- Manipulative- An addict- A liar- Etc- At any age- If they choose-

rosecarmel would that mean that all abusers know they are abusive?

Smileless -- There is a difference between someone who has reached adult age/is fully formed and an adult who is healthy. Healthy adults are not susceptible to manipulation tactics.

Healthy adults and adults that are 'of age' are different types of people and therefore are not comparable. And please show me your research that proves healthy adults are susceptible to manipulation...

I've seen lots of arguments for and against abusive people knowing they are abusive. I think I'd go for a third option and say they just don't care as long as they are getting what they want x

HolyHanna, the internet and libraries contain an abundance of information, so much so, that a single individual isn't equipped to thoroughly research all of it- In reality-

Facts can be difficult to face- Therefore, avoided or denied-

No, Yennifer- I don't think all abusers know they are-

I really don't think a lot of ECs come at it at an angle of proving themselves right when deciding to estrange, I think they come at it from the "why doesn't my mother love me angle". It's their hearts telling them they have to estrange for their own good, not heads research. Probably speaking for myself lol x

Yennifer -- I agree. They don't care that they hurt you and therefore don't 'care' they are abusive. So do they know? Yes and no. That's why I posted Dr. Allen's article about "Clueless Parents"...

rosecarmel -- A quick Google search of "parents who admit abuse" or "estranged parents who know why" yields nothing. Yet I can find source upon source to prove what I claim.

www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/tech-support/201911/what-science-knows-about-adult-child-parent-estrangement

So if I'm "wrong" please, show me the research my 'bias' has caused me to deny.

HolyHannah, sometimes people cling to a single view for their own well-being- Because they need to, because they are continuing to work through issues- Therefore, in that respect, it can be healthy-

And sometimes it's necessary for them to maintain a static view for the rest of their lives, because they couldn't cope with being alive without it-

But life, in reality, isn't black and white- The idea that no parents admit to being abusive is, well, black- The idea that all do, white-

rosecarmel -- As I have said before, I don't know if ALL parents that are abusive don't/won't admit it. I have searched exhaustively for anywhere where parents (estranged or not) admit to being abusive. I have been unsuccessful.

Find me a site/source where a parent does admit to being abusive and therefore should know why they are estranged and then I'll have proof of how wrong I am. Just your word or anyone else's that I am 'wrong' isn't really going to convince me.

HolyHannah, you can begin with a newspaper article from the The Los Angeles Times titled: Abusive Parents Are Helped, Not Judged, Groups Help Them Care for Children Properly-

Parents Anonymous was founded in 1969- You can find sources at their website-

I managed to find a very few EPs saying that their estrangement was their fault. At worst they had explained why it wasn't their fault by the end of the comment and at best they had allowed themselves to be convinced by other EPs that it wasn't their fault by the end of the discussions. I will keep looking as I would like to see this but I hope it doesn't give me false hope. An admission of fault and a genuine apology would bring forgiveness for me but I can't let it be a daydream x

Rosecarmel, those are people breaking the cycle with their own children, not estranged from their adult children x