Why you might be estranged... aka the same theme/attitude of EP/EGP's that EAC understand.

To be clear, estranged adult children aren't unicorns either- They're imprinted- With carrots or parsnips- They're clear that distance is necessary, although they carry carrots and parsnips with them when they go without realizing it-

Yennifer -- Their is no 'middle' with some people. It's the black and white thinking/dysfunction again. It's either THEIR WAY or no one is allowed to be happy.

This is one of the things I learned in recovery. My family's perceptions are warped. In order to make them see 'my side' would require them to rewire the entire way they think, much like I had to rewrite my faulty thought processes. The difference is I knew there was something 'wrong' in my family and made changes. They also believe the 'family' has a problem... and it's ME.

I think times have changed, what was acceptable no longer is specifically because it has had a negative impact. We either have to change and meet our children in a place of understanding, knowing we did wrong andapologising even if we knew no better.... or choose to believe we were right and risk losing them. Abusive people will always choose the latter x

Madgran -- A unicorn, by one definition is something that, if it does exist, is extremely rare. So in my example, an EAC that walked away from a good and loving/supportive family for "no reason" is a unicorn.

And yet most EP's believe their EAC is that unicorn. The math doesn't work. EAC one after another cite ongoing family dysfunction as the reason for No Contact.

So this is a common theme for EAC. We hear all these 'unicorn parents' -- the good/not truly abusive ones -- that were "cut off for no reason"/or the 'excuse reasons' (that I mentioned in my comment to Yennifer) and I think, "There are a whole bunch of horses in this field with carrots stuck to their foreheads that believe they are unicorns."

When you have experienced scapegoat abuse and family dysfunction it is easy to spot the patterns of behavior. And yes, yes, I know, "That's your problem. You see that in ALL EP's because your view is tainted." No... For the last time, I only see abusive behavior and dysfunctional thinking in those that are demonstrating those behaviors.

That's the issue with dysfunctional individuals. They "project".

www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/projection

In other words, things like, "I will always be on the side of their mums/mils's..." This person admits that regardless of evidence or any other information, she runs on a bias/is a black and white thinker. "Parent = good/could not have done anything wrong" and EAC or "wayward daughters/daughters-in-law" = bad.

So to say I think ALL EP's are abusive is just them projecting how they think onto Me. It's a form of gas-lighting and I know it when I see it. Nope. If someone doesn't want me to think they are a 'duck' then as I have said before, "Don't preen, quack, waddle and float on a pond." and I won't see a duck.

Holy Hannah what exactly do you mean when you say you consider someone to be a unicorn? I dont really understand the term?? Is it "a figment if ones imagination?" Unicorns are not really something I have come across other than pink sparkly ones that seem to be on all sorts of merchandise these days!

I'd probably give up an arm for a good mum, so weird you can feel the loss of what you never had x

I don't know? I'm not in that situation Madgran77 so not really sure why anyone would estrange decent parents x

I realise that Yennifer, my question wasnt particularly directedcat you...I was just musing really on the issue x

I look to myself- To my parents, to my parent's parents, to my parent's parent's parents- I look to society as a whole, in my country and around the globe- To the environment, to the young and to the old-

Cause and effect- Neglectful, abusive parents didn't cause the opioid epidemic in the US on their own- No, the root causes are collective- And lack love-

Has anyone, truly, no contributed to the problem?

Yennifer -- Again, that is another common theme. The only people who have the idea or the motivation to believe that "good/loving parents" are sometimes/often estranged are EP's. No source I have found shows EAC who don't say that abuse/neglect or some other poor family dynamic wasn't the reason for estrangement.

EP's have a vested interested in the belief that EAC just "walk away for no reason" or that they are 'weak minded' and 'influenced' by their spouse, or mentally ill or any combination there of. Or perhaps it's alcohol or drug-addiction...

And as I have said, all or some of that may be true, but again EP's refuse to take a step back and answer some obvious questions like, "Why is your child weak-minded and easily manipulated? Is it because you emotionally abused them from childhood forward leaving them susceptible to other emotional abusers?" For me the answer is yes.

"Why did/does your child seek out drugs and alcohol? Is it because they were abused and are self-medicating and numbing their pain?" The answer for Me is yes.

"Why is my child mentally ill?" Most of my mental issues are directly attributable to the scapegoat abuse I endured as a child.

I'm sure there is an exception or two (true unicorns) but every EP claims to be that unicorn while many act exactly like our abusive parents.

So no, I don't know a reason either why any AC would estrange from a loving/good family. Any abused EAC would love for the abuse to end so they could have a real "family" so I really can't envision having a good/loving family and walking away. I would consider that AC to be a unicorn.

I don't know? I'm not in that situation Madgran77 so not really sure why anyone would estrange decent parents x

"Like, a parent who loves you and wants what is best for you and doesn't hurt you on purpose?"

Ok. So why estranged in those circumstances? It does happen

Like, a parent who loves you and wants what is best for you and doesn't hurt you on purpose?

"I think honestly that is where decent EPs come unstuck. They just can't see that they are in the minority. The majority of estrangement are fully justified."

It is unusual to see an acknowledgement that there might be some "decent EPs" out there! Although I am not entirely sure what constitutes a "decent EP"?

You haven't offended me- I do see my family, Sparkling- I do hold myself accountable- I hold them accountable too- All have boundaries in place, all have experienced change- Except for the thinking that they are better crap! It's as if it's an indelible pattern! But it isn't, since it isn't constant-

Repairing is life-long- Relationships naturally change and go through phases, but perhaps more dramatically for families that have experienced as much as mine has, which I take into account when "things" go south .. when one member or another distances themselves .. or returns to unhealthy dynamics .. like thinking they are better than me ..

Sparkling you should understand that abuse in childhood changes the brain. The effects can be lifelong. Anxiety, depression, other mental health impacts. It can be a constant battle. We grow up with a negative inner voice that constantly tries to sabotage us. It's not easy and we all try our best x

Rosecarmel, you still haven't let go. Stop fighting yourself. Is it because deep down you would like to see your family, despite what they put you through. Would it just be the same battles if you did? I can understand your point of view , but you are worth more than having this burden on your shoulders. You estranged for a reason, they won't change if there is a long history of it, you have to find your own worth, your happiness and life is not dependant on them, make your own family circle, make itva happy one for them,me for you, value your friend or friends, lots of us lose our parents whilst young, and have no extended family, I was young when I my mother died, I have made a life. I hope I haven't offended you but I want you to be happy and let go of the past.

I've abused others and have been abused by others- I've abused my abusers!!! Abuse in my family goes back generations as does estrangement and reconciliation while learning to keep a healthy distance between us as the years have gone by-

Everyone defines abuse differently- None of it is acceptable, yet plenty let it slide, especially when there's no recourse other than distance which many are too frightened to implement-

I'm the scapegoat, therefore, less than the rest of my extended family- A family that wouldn't proclaim they didn't do anything wrong, but would all think they're better than me- That's one thing that hasn't changed ..

Sparkling, I understand where you are coming from regarding the royals- Nobody knows for certain, of course- I made an assessment from the information I read- I see them as working together but at different speeds, the Queen "at pace", the young couple quickly, both acting responsibly to meet their specific needs-

As an individual I definitely linger when looking at matters from a particular angle until there's a shift and I see things from another angle-

I tend to return to forgiveness frequently in an effort not to harbor resentment- When clear about what I will allow or won't, dropping resentment and being forgiving is for myself healthier- If the process requires discussion with others I make the effort to explain what I won't allow, or will, and why- As I see it, discussion itself isn't a compromise-

Yennifer -- I agree. A lot of EP's seem to think EAC are "making up reasons" or we say "terrible things" to 'justify' our behavior. The thing is, if someone wants to estrange they can simply walk away. There is no reason/motivation to lie or make up anything when "I simply don't want to share company with these people regardless of my genetic relation." will suffice.

The only reason to fabricate a story is to cover something up. Who is motivated to deny child abuse? An abuse victim has no need to lie when their reality was abusive. An abuser has a vested interest in writing a different narrative. The "I didn't do anything 'wrong'." narrative is popular. No one admits to being an abuser... EVER.

I think honestly that is where decent EPs come unstuck. They just can't see that they are in the minority. The majority of estrangement are fully justified.

It's A at least 80% of the time

I sent my mother a full notorised list of why I was estranging... She said none of it happened. If my child estranged and came to me with a list of reasons, I would believe her because people don't just estrange for no reason. Either A. I did those things. B. a third party convinced them I did those things or C. my child genuinely believes those things happened and needs help. I would say it's at least 80% of the time. Lots of abusive parents out there. In none of those situations, ABC would I deny and deflect or blame my child. I would say whatever they needed to hear to keep them close and fix whatever the problems are x

Sparkling -- The term "justify actions" is troubling to me. Adults with autonomy do not need to justify their actions to anyone. If people are required to justify their actions, to whose satisfaction must the "justification" meet?

It goes to the common theme of, "You can't walk away from Me unless you have a 'real reason'." That's not how it works. I have reasons for going No Contact and I don't need to explain or "justify" my actions/reactions to anyone. Even if I had NO REASON there is nothing written in stone that says I have to explain that either.

Abusive people have a hard time with the answer, "No." being given to anything. "No." always has to come with a reason/justification. It's exhausting and one of the things that leads to estrangement.

I don't think any of us are "judging" the royals, Sparkling. We're just exploring the information we've been given (some of it by them).

Just a couple of posters are constantly rerunning the same scenarios to justify actions. I do think you put your own spin on things dams it is just your opinion and not fact. The things you said about the royals for instance, we don’t know the full story so how can you judge?