Why you might be estranged... aka the same theme/attitude of EP/EGP's that EAC understand.

I just want to jump up and down and say that saying if GP have previously been left alone with GC it must mean they weren't abusive is not always going to be true, you would have to go far deeper into the mind of an abused child who has been gaslighted to think the abuse didn't happen or was their own fault somehow to understand it. People are abused by their husbands/wives and allow their children around them or to even witness it. The human mind is a complex and easily damaged thingand a lot of abused children believe in their souls they deserved it and are the bad ones until they wake up x

I agree with you Yennifer and on reflection I should have worded that part of my post to take what you've said into consideration.

I was in a bit of 'jumping up and down' frame of mind myself at the time of posting, due to yet another lengthy post referring to childhood abuse understandably resulting in estrangement and not making any attempt to differentiate between abusive EP's/GP's and non abusive EP's/GP's.

Asking "who was the first parent" can lead to lengthy, healthy discussion- Who was the first parent to do what? Who was the first parent to be trained via patterns and who was the first to be a certain way from birth- What impact or harmony did each visit on relationships-

Understanding how things came to be doesn't necessarily fix anything- It can provides answers and opportunities to build anew-

If you had an idea of what anew would look like, scrap it- Because reconciliation isn't what you think it is- Not to the parent, not to the adult child, no matter if the adult child is a parent or isnt-

Once understanding is arrived at, it might be mutually determined that distance is the healthiest avenue- That may sound counter to the goal that one sets out to achieve, but once understanding is reached is welcomed- Sadly- But best nonetheless-

I'm sick and tired of misogyny, its historical impact on families, male and female alike-

Mothers are often discussed in estrangement threads but fathers not so much despite the fact men and misogyny are everywhere -

We all know the saying ‘A mother’s place is in the wrong’......

For us "distance is the healthiest avenue" and as you say rosecarmel "Sadly - But best nonetheless".

Pantglas.

I think we've been conditioned to accept father's abandoning children as almost normal. Mothers we rarely let abandon children literally so maybe they do it emotionally then? x

If women abandon emotionally, is it accepted as normal, too?

Depends why I suppose, everything is complicated lol x

ideapod.com/you-were-raised-by-narcissists-if-you-suffer-from-these-10-things/

I'm not sure why the title says 10 Things when there is actually 14 but the info is still spot on.

This is why abused EAC/children of Narcissists don't just 'get over' their abuse even after getting counselling and becoming healthier. The damage is multi-layered and life long/mind altering.

themighty.com/2019/06/difference-between-ptsd-cptsd/

All 14. Working on it. I was asked not do do something by a teacher I haven't worked long with yesterday. Only 5 minutes of feeling shaky and like the worst TA in the world before I realised it actually wasn't a big deal at all and she just likes to do things differently which is fine x

A friend showed me a comment today, it was an article on a woman who beat and tortured her children and dropped their baby pets into boiling water forcing them to watch. I don't remember the exact words but it was something like "how can my daughter say I'm abusive? this is abuse!". I'm not saying this woman is abusive but how bad is it that some think in black and white. Obviously abusive and not abusive? No shades of grey? No shades of abusive? Child torturers, pet killers and child murders versus great parenting? Nothing in between? Really irks me

Well that's clearly abuse isn't it; no question about it. An extreme case of child abuse and animal cruelty.

The woman in this case has serious mental health problems.

Yennifer -- Yes. It is certainly a "common theme" that when some abusers encounter others they will use the, "I'm not 'that bad' so therefore I must have been a 'good' mother." It doesn't work that way.

Black and white thinking is dysfunctional and is often used by abusers to minimize their behavior. The funny part is those abusers use the same dysfunctional logic as to why their victim isn't "good enough" when compared to anyone else. More double-standards and a set of rules for 'betters'/them and 'lessers'/you.

I understand your frustration. Abuse is multi-leveled and people who don't grasp the subtleties tend to join in the minimizing of what abuse often looks like and don't understand the long term fall-out for child-abuse victims.

www.dailykos.com/stories/2014/7/25/1315603/-Psychology-Of-Splitting-And-Projection-That-Enraged-Voice-In-Your-Head-Screaming-At-Strangers

There is much in this article. Some highlights, "This might be why so many people end up married to someone that is a near clone of their abusive parent." I have mentioned this as a "common theme". Abuse victims see abuse as 'normal' and they are easy targets to perpetrators. So I definitely believe EP's that believe/know their DiL is abusive to their son. Abusers can spot each other the same way they can see potential victims.

"If they gain any power at all, they are likely turn their criticism and sabotage outwards towards others. However, it may be intolerable to see themselves as the aggressor, sadist, rageaholic, or stalker. So they have to reject these internal traits by splitting and attributing these traits to other people, creating a "persecutory object," a straw man in the image of a sadistic person." Parents have ultimate 'power' over their dependent children and when they abuse those children they say things like, "They were 'difficult' from day one. I could never do anything about their 'bad' behavior aka. existing and I would have never said/done what I did if they had not..." and I feel like they want to add, "I wouldn't have been a child abuser if they hadn't been born."

Wow, HH! Very "heavy" post and article. A lot to take in.

Starlady -- Interesting you should use the word "heavy". There is a very 'simple' (to the outside ear) song I like very much and the message is:

"Complicate this world you wrapped for me
I'm acquainted with your suffering
And all your weight
It falls on me
It brings me down
And all your weight
It falls on me
It falls on me…"

I know what I hear in that song...

So I definitely believe EP's that believe/know their DiL is abusive to their son. Abusers can spot each other the same way they can see potential victims.

Are you saying that if someone can see that someone else is being abusive, they must be an abuser themselves or they wouldnt be able to see it?

My God Yennifer Wed 26-Feb-20 22:41:00 Did you really need to share that! I don't believe it, as you don't believe us on here.

Again: My God HolyHanna you have a very dark mind!

The method of raising your child may have come through the generations: -
Preferential treatment of certain kids in the family, and less tolerance to the "difficult" child. The parent/s sets in motion an unfair family dynamic.
Never understanding that this is an abusive dynamic within dysfunctional parenting.

These parents are unaware of their favourite/s, and scapegoat/s. But not always.

The children of such parenting can be unaware, aware, or experiencing simmering resentment- but not realise why until therapy.

This complicates both versions of relationship forever.

Yogagirl. How have I ever not believed you? I've only spoken about abusive parents!

Yogagirl I believe it was you who didn't believe me and followed me to other threads to laugh at me. What I find difficult to understand is that everyone on this thread who laughed at me, belittled me, insinuated I was a liar and minimised my abuse would probably have a very different reaction if it was their own DGC. I bet that if DGC came crying, frightened and upset with just a couple of my stories posters who have been cruel to me (no apology) would be straight on the phone to social services desperate to protect DGC. So why is it any different for me to share a story as an adult? x

Yogagirl : Post of Thursday , and saying I totally agree with you did Yennifer really need to share such disturbing comments, I do not believe it, just as EGP are not believed.

Also HolyHannah you imagination is very vivid.

In the case of this abuse that supposedly happened to some of these badly abused EC I will point out once again that people would have noticed and seen things heard things and would not have stood by without alerting services/police if the abuse was very serious. Do not try and tell me that all the abuse some of you say you suffered that nobody ever reported it I find that very hard to believe.

I'm afraid I can't protect your from the news that exists. These things happen/are happening to little children x

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/woman-boil-puppies-children-new-mexico-a8976476.html

Yennifer : If I had lived next door to you in your younger days, and abuse was happening being the sort of person I am I know I would have reported your mother for child cruelty, come what may there would have been things I would have heard and things I seen that would have made it clear what was going on.