Why you might be estranged... aka the same theme/attitude of EP/EGP's that EAC understand.

I tend to enter new situations wanting everyone to like me. Then I remember that not everyone will and that's OK. I don't have to like them, which is also OK x

Not all estrangement is as a result of abuse though is it? Sometimes you just didn't like them and really didn't want to continue having any relationship with them and so ended it. Or the relationship was just too complicated and you just didn't have the inclination or desire to waste any more time on it. The relationship between children and parents is like any other relationship; they can run their course and then, over time, there's no common ground to take the relationship further.

rosecarmel -- I'm still waiting for, "I'm an estranged parent and I know it's because of what I did/how I treated my children growing up and that it was abusive." Those are the parents I am talking about and I haven't found one yet.

Emotional abusers do not admit it. There is no 'evidence'. It's my word against my entire 'family'. They win by numbers.

Emotional abusers rarely/if ever end up in court because, "It's 'just' words. You're not REALLY being treated 'differently'. It's not that bad. Others' have it 'worse'. You complain too much. You're stupid. You don't know what you're talking about because you are the child and I am the adult."

And the last one? That never changes regardless of age which is huge reason AC estrange -- We get tired of being a perpetual 'lesser'.

rosecarmel -- What I saw there was admission of abuse yes. However, those parents clearly see their behavior as wrong. Emotional abusers do not believe they are doing anything wrong and therefore do not own it. That's the difference.

And as I said... The specific example I am looking for is the parent that admits they were abusive and they know that is the reason they are estranged and being kept from their grandchildren. Do you have an example of one of those? Otherwise it's comparing apples to oranges.

The specific example I am looking for is the parent that admits they were abusive and they know that is the reason they are estranged and being kept from their grandchildren

I am trying to understand why you are looking for that kind of parent Holy Hannah? What is the purpose for you? Will it help you or other EACs or EPs?

Its a genuine question, I can't work out the purpose of the search

rosecarmel -- I would genuinely like to hear a EP not blame their child(ren) for estrangement and know that someone owns their behavior and how it impacted their child(ren). It would be very therapeutic to for once hear, "Yeah. I brought this on myself." It would give me hope that if one EP can reach that conclusion, that perhaps one day others' (including my own) can reach the same conclusion so healing might begin.

There is no healing or reconciliation possible for children of abusive upbringings, especially the Scapegoat child, until everyone recognizes the reality of the dysfunctional environment.

HolyHannah, if reconciliation is something you fear, and I wouldn't blame you if you do, I'd say you're aforementioned specifically, constructed criteria should keep you safe from it taking place-

Especially when several generations are involved and patterns as well as accountability have become intertwined, like cudzu, such things aren't that easy to find-

In my family's case, you'd need 100 years of GoPro Slo Mo footage to tease out the criteria you're seeking and arrange it according to order- Its been a long process of winding and unwinding-

There's plenty I've had to admit and hold myself accountable for and allow others to hold me accountable for as well- But nobody has entered into such discussions with me without engaging in the same process themselves-

People won't blindly admit to what they don't see, HolyHannah-

It would be very therapeutic to for once hear, "Yeah. I brought this on myself." It would give me hope that if one EP can reach that conclusion, that perhaps one day others' (including my own) can reach the same conclusion so healing might begin.

Holy Hannah now I understand your reasons for searching.

The orbital YouTube video, that opened this thread, showed a vitriolic woman ranting her views. Could anyone live with that day after day? she was obsessed, I would say not a typical estranged grandparent. Likewise, there are adult children just like that, showing extremes behaviour. In both cases it would be prudent and necessary for your own mental health to absent yourself, no one could stand it. They just go on and on stating their case but why would anyone reconnect.? Itcworjs both ways.

I agree Sparkling.

I feel very sorry for you HolyHanna you clearly have a lot of problems, which look like they will be life long for you, just looking at the length of the OP says a lot.

I think I'd like to hear my mother say why. I think I logically know why. I think I'd like to hear her say it was nothing I did wrong even though I know I was an innocent child and no child deserves to be unloved x

I feel the same about our ES, not for reconciliation but it would be nice if he took responsibility for what he's done.

Yogagirl -- Don't be insulting.

This thread has been such a journey. I was shocked and upset at people trying to prove me a bad child/person, a liar or invalidate my abuse. I think it's helped me in a way having to really have to stand up for myself as I've never had anyone question me before, I've always just been validated. Standing up for myself has taught that horrible voice of my mother in my head to shut up. I feel more at peace with my decision than I've ever felt before and really capable of moving forward and worrying about my own behaviour in future, not that of others x

Hallelujah

I highly doubt I'd of waded into the waters of discovering weighed down by the thought that it was all on me- I was kept afloat knowing it wasn't-

But that's not what some people want to hear, that anyone can only own so much, that their parent began with a deficit to begin with and didn't know it, therefore, couldn't own it- So don't-

How they were raised contributed to their being estranged or having a difficult relationship with their children- It's an entangled mess, but one that makes complete sense-

What many ascribe to as necessary for reconciliation wouldn't work for me, nor would we as a family made it onto a path of understanding, one with no guarantees, if the burden was all on me-

If it was, I'd of been like y'all go on ahead without me!

And I've a niece that did exactly that! I'm happy she did- For her own well-being- The only drawback is that she's still attached to the "better than rather than better at" scapegoat dynamic I was defined by, by family-

If you can your hands on a copy, audio a much better choice I think for this particular excerpt, check out Chapter 22 of Demi Moore's book Inside Out- Specifically the paragraphs where she begins to ask herself "how did I get here" and then answers her question-

You learn more about her in that last chapter than you do the rest of the book- She provides insight on estrangement and accountability-

Why estrangement cannot be 'fixed'... EP's believe that No Contact is a way for EAC to try to 'control' them... Fact -- The word "control" is almost never used by EAC to describe how they would like their relationship to improve/be with their EP's. Which fits the evidence that suggests it's EP's that are interested in having 'control'. It also fits the evidence that a 50/50 relationship is impossible because to be "in control" means you expect/demand 'more' and believe others' (including your EAC) have the same dysfunctional feelings and are therefore behaving/thinking in the same way. Fact -- We are not looking for "control" or to be 'better'/elevated. We just want the abuse to STOP. How does that = wanting to be 'in control'?

EP's believe that withholding contact with the grands is a "power play" and using the children as "pawns" in some 'game'... Abused children who have gone NC are done/not interested in playing the dysfunctional 'games' anymore. We're tired of the manufactured drama and abuse.

If there IS a 'game' being played in dysfunctional families? Who 'set the board'? This is like EP's who claim the younger generations are 'spoiled brats' because they were given "participation trophy's"... EAC/Spoiled Brat -- "Who handed Me/Us the 'trophy'? YOU!" So EP's are spouting, "We gave our kids EVERYTHING including stuff they didn't deserve/earn like WE did!!!" and then blame US for YOUR bad parenting choices, like handing Us those trophy's and how that made Us become/turn out.

What EAC know as a "common theme" is... Parent -- "Whatever I did or did not do? It doesn't matter because I did 'my best'. If my 'best' was abusive and it damaged You? You are an adult NOW and you need to 'own' your bad choices instead of blaming Me for the lack of foundation I gave/provided for You."

A parent starts their relationship with their child with 100% control... How the 'parent' moves to build that relationship is also 100% on the parent.

So IF the goal is to reconcile with your EAC, stop blaming Us and start owning the dysfunction you created/allowed because You were the 'adult' and "in control" of your home/family.

HolyHannah, I used to skip your posts they were so long, but on reflection, you come over as having all the answers, your views are right whatever. It feel sorry for Hannah, as on reading a couple I see you have this anger boiling up which is not helping you come to terms with whatever decisions you have made. I tend to wait perhaps too long, deliberating before I do anything that effects my personal relationships, but I haven't had your problems. Perhaps you might want to reconsider those decisions you have made, made perhaps when feelings were running high, evaluate and maybe consider them. There is more to be gained by a lesson learned than being right. If I am way off the mark, that your anger is not about that, then I apologise. All of us make a wrong call now and then.

Sparkling -- If anyone thought/bothered or cared to ask Me, "What emotion would you most relate to your mom?" I would say, "Anger". So depending on what 'side' you relate with, if you see my truth as 'anger' I accept that. It's just more of the 'default setting' of my world to understand that most won't understand or believe Me.

I say she was angry... She says, "You were difficult!" Who was the parent/adult first?

I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed x

You are not in control of your AC. You have no control over who they wish to marry or choose as a life partner. You have no control over their decision to estrange you and take away your GC.

So, in some cases it is about control when an AC estranges. There are countless examples of GP's losing contact with their GC having previously been able to see them, babysit and give free childcare.

When this happens, the GC are being used "as pawns in some game". Surely abusive parents would never be allowed to have their GC unsupervised for the children's protection, so it's reasonable to assume that being estranged by their AC and becoming estranged from their GC has nothing to do with a history of abuse.

I've seen here on GN, GP's who walk on egg shells, bite their tongues and worry about saying they're unable to continue with the amount of childcare they provide, for fear of losing their AC and their GC.

The fear of becoming estranged is a form of control.

Once again I would have to add the word "some" when talking about any group EAC; EP; EGP in your post Holy Hannah

Control takes many forms and is exercised by people from different groups in different contexts.

*Yennifer disappointment I truly understand...it resonates for me in my own situation!

I agree Madgran. Putting AEC (abused adult child), AEP (abusive estranged parents) and AEGP (abusive estranged GP's) would prevent posts from appearing to tar everyone with the same brush.