I have some questions

You realise you don't have to tell everyone you don't agree all the time right? It's much less confrontational to just say "here is how I look at things" rather than "I don't agree with YOU" then people wonder why someone would ever feel uncomfortable and decide it must be their fault.

TV ..it is isn't it!! [hmmm]

Yes! I'm a bit scared I will fall asleep, the TV is really boring this year

Yennjifer it doesn't take much to make me doubt myself or my decision

I hope you can get to a point where you can resist the doubts. I have seen your comments on other threads and you seem to have thought so carefully about your reasons for estranging. I know you are sad about the loss of family relationships for your children, but to be honest the relationship with their parents and with good friends and other caring adults is so much more important

That time where you wait for children to sleep in order to "do" the presents ...is magical...at least it is when one looks back on it...but when experiencing that desperate tiredness whilst waiting, not so much!! But isn't it lovely when they all open the presents in the morning. I have such happy memories of those times at Christmas. Enjoy!

Yes Chewbacca "pain is pain" and as you say "whatever the circumstances are surrounding an estrangement, it just bloody hurts".

As you say Madgran both EAC and EP's/GP can be, and are defensive for very good reasons and yes, your post does make sense.

With regard to your totally false allegation that I have driven posters away from estrangement threads notanan, I will treat that with the contempt it deserves.

I didn't say you were asserting Yennifer. I said that I didn't think that I could agree with your observations. That doesn't mean that I'm uber confident; just that I've had many, many years to think about my past and to reach the equilibrium and peace of mind that I have reached now.

I sincerely hope that you also reach a state that gives you peace of mind too. I wish you a Merry Christmas and Peaceful New Year.

A this point my husband is snoring on the sofa and it looks like it is all on me to wait for everyone to fall asleep to take presents up so I'm just glad there are people around to chat to

I'm not asserting Chewbacca I promise. I am a fully fledged adult and I feel a little like a child talking to adults here. It might just be because this is very new to me. You seem a very confident person and I have never been very confident or assertive. It doesn't take much to make me doubt myself or my decision. I would like to get to a place where I didn't feel any need to justify it to myself or anyone else x

* Why is there no understanding that people come here hurt and vulnerable and might lash out a little?*

Some people do seem to understand that Yennifer, some appear not to. Some who do understand, soon show that they will make allowances, others seem not to

* Is it not normal in a way for the ACs to assume a more defensive role when they haven't been listened to for too long against people they can't help seeing as their elders?*

The problem with this is that there are GPs/APs who haven't been listened to in their lives, also on this forum as well.

I think that the focus should be on people who are estranged and their stories rather than which "group" they belong to. I think that what happens is that some posters treat all posters who are in the "other group" as being an amorphous mass who are all the same as whoever they estranged themselves from. So no allowance is made for an EAC who has a different story to the AC they estranged from. Or for an EP/EGP who has a different story to that that EAC posters have experienced with their parents

Sorry, that is a bit convoluted!! Hope it makes sense!

I'm not sure I can agree with you there Yennifer. From my own experiences here, I can only say that I've been met with understanding and kind support from the majority of posters.

Is it not normal in a way for the ACs to assume a more defensive role when they havent been listened to for too long against people they can't help seeing as their elders?

Again, I'm not sure that I can agree with that observation. I can't see why the hurt and pain that an AC has suffered is any more, or less, painful, or more "valid" than that suffered by an estranged parent. Pain is pain, isnt it? It all comes with its own baggage and history, surely? What makes one more legitimate than the other? Wouldn't it be better to be able to accept that, whatever the circumstances are surrounding an estrangement, it just bloody hurts?

Sara65 It followed straight on from my saying that I wasn't suggesting anyone needed to have permission so I misread it as a response to my comments. Apologies and thanks for your apology too

Sorry if you thought this was specifically aimed at you Madgran, it wasn’t, truly.

Why is there no understanding that people come here hurt and vulnerable and might lash out a little? Isn't that normal for everyone who finds their way here? Obviously there are some long standing disputes?
What about the balance of power between Ps and ACs? Is it not normal in a way for the ACs to assume a more defensive role when they havent been listened to for too long against people they can't help seeing as their elders?

Yet again Sara65, you've said precisely what I've tried, rather clumsily, to say. This, for me, says it all:

Not everything is a massive drama, heinous acts of cruelty or abuse don’t have to be the story behind an estrangement, although I’m aware they often are. Sometimes, it’s knowing you are neither liked, nor approved of, that you have not a single happy or warm memory of being with that parent.

Thank you Sara65.

No one needs anyone’s permission to estrange from a parent, especially not the approval of anyone on this forum.

No-one needs anyone's permission to estrange from anyone, parent, child, grandparent, friend! Noone has suggested that they do. I am unsure why my comments appear to have been read as if I am suggesting that anyone needs permission. I have not suggested that and do not think it.

No one needs anyone’s permission to estrange from a parent, especially not the approval of anyone on this forum.

Not everything is a massive drama, heinous acts of cruelty or abuse don’t have to be the story behind an estrangement, although I’m aware they often are. Sometimes, it’s knowing you are neither liked, nor approved of, that you have not a single happy or warm memory of being with that parent, when being with them brings you down, and you know you’re a worse person when you’re with them.

Then it’s best to walk away, you don’t need to get anyone’s permission.

No Contact in my experience has IMPROVED my relationships because the ones I have now are healthy

Yes Holy Hannah, quite a few estranged posters have said that. I suppose that it is inevitable as one is removing oneself from an unhealthy relationship and therefore can focus only on healthy ones that both parties want

Notanan I am not trying to give approval atall, why on earth would I! As you say that is no-ones right. I am simply saying that you have presented me with a specific perspective on a pattern of responses that you have observed on this forum. It is not a pattern that I have observed and therefore I will spend a bit of time to see if I can see what you mean.

By individual circumstances I meant that the circumstances that made someone decide to estrange which will be individual to them. Of course no one has to stay in a relationship if they don't want to, I don't think that I have suggested that anyone should.

Yeah... me too... once they meet the GN threshold of suffering disney villan type abuse, and have grovelled for a resolution till it near killed them!

I have no recollection of that ever happening to me notanan. And I'm an EAC. But then again, I've never insisted that the pain and sorrow of being an EAC is in any way worse or "more valid" than that of an EP/EGP. I've recognised that, whoever you've become estranged from, and whatever your reason is for being where you are, the sadness and misery it causes is the same for all.

Nobody has any right to approve or otherwise another person's relationship end. It is not down to individual circumstances, nobody has to stay in a relationship with anyone they dont want to be with.

Two have to consent to remain in a relationship, but you do not need both party's consent to end it. And that is how it should be.

The giving of aproval which isn't yours to give is an unhealthy dynamic.

*Yeah... me too... once they meet the GN threshold of suffering disney villan type abuse, and have grovelled for a resolution till it near killed them!
People who just walk away because life is better without someone in it that with... but wasn't beaten black n blue daily and never fed or clothed... not so much!*

I will spend a bit of time re reading some estrangement threads I think as this is not a consistent pattern of response that I have observed. Each estrangement scenario is individual to each person so I suppose responses would adjust accordingly but I think you are saying that sympathy is given only if a person has suffered physical abuse, rather than long term emotional abuse.

I have seen posts where EAC have been offered support and have not villified for their decision.

Yeah... me too... once they meet the GN threshold of suffering disney villan type abuse, and have grovelled for a resolution till it near killed them!

People who just walk away because life is better without someone in it that with... but wasnt beaten black n blue daily and never fed or clothed... not so much!

No Contact in my experience has IMPROVED my relationships because the ones I have now are healthy. My 'mom' may FEEL that she is the injured party but there is one common 'person' whenever relationship issues came up in my FOO. Her. So from her perspective No Contact is hurting HER but she doesn't CARE that contact with her hurts everyone but her.

And how does one determine who is 'American' or not unless they have stated?

There have been plenty of posts where EAC are told that NC is "allowed" if they have improbably machievellian disney villan parents.

I have seen posts where EAC have been offered support and have not villified for their decision.

Some more vulnerable/damaged posters then seek approval and lay their wounds bare to get "yay" or "nayed.

I'm not sure what the "yay" or "nayed" constitutes? There are arguments yes, but I don't see, or have missed, where EACs are told that their Non contact/estrangement decision was specifically not valid.

Wow tidy, in your friend's opinion, your friend is not the bad guy in her version of events! Fancy that what a turn up for the books!